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Old 08-05-2015, 10:02 PM   #8626
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THE AWESOMATIX(&TC4.1) HAS A LEG UP ON ALL BELT CARS BECAUSE "BERT" HAS BEEN SAYING SO FROM 2007 UNTIL TODAY !!!!
END OF DISCUSSION !!!!!!
NOW, BRING ON THE RFG, FLOATING ESC, FLOATING RADIO, FLOATING ANTENNA, FLOATING GEARS, FLOATING BATTERY, AND ANY OTHER FLOATING CONCEPT YOU GOT IN MIND....LOL.... THAT ONLY MAKES IT EASIER TO OWN YOUR TAILORED VERSION A700...
XRAY LIKES TO OPTIMIZE STUFF, AND AWESOMATIX LIKES "FLOATING" STUFF...LOL...
DON'T COMPARE THE AWESOMATIX TO OTHER CARS PLEASE !!!
DRIVERS WIN RACES, CARS DON'T !!!!!
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Old 08-05-2015, 11:44 PM   #8627
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Thats it! The BERT has spoken
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Old 08-06-2015, 12:16 AM   #8628
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I just fail to see how this "directness" (be it measured by play in the drivetrain or flexing/stretching of the materials,
The A700 driveline is more efficient which is irrelevant for mod but in low power classess especially when running blinky is relevant. In my experience shaft drive with spec blinky classes motors run cooler which allows you to push the motor harder which results in a speed/lap time advantage.

The car also seems to pull more from the front on initial acceleration rather than a belt drive car which seems to (possibly due to belt stretch) drive more from the rear.

But the crown jewl of the car is the suspension ie the upper A arms and lower CG which great in high grip conditions.

Some racers seem to struggle with the suspension and prefer crappy caster blocks and traditional shocks.
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Old 08-06-2015, 08:44 AM   #8629
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the debate of shaft vs 2belt vs 3 belt really belongs in a different thread instead of jacking this one, which is about supporting and driving one specific shaft-driven car.

It honestly sounds like you came here trolling, heretic, couching it in "persuade me" language.

You ask to be persuaded, but when the (albeit subjective) reasons that people have are given, you say you doubt.

I don't know if there are actual bench tests between shaft and belt - not sure which ones would actually apply. I know free spinning tests show that shafts spin free-er and longer than belt. I know that full-size vehicle tests have shown that belts are far less efficient than shaft (which is one reason why even FWD cars use gears and shafts rather than belts, constant-variable-transmissions notwithstanding) - but I don't think that any of these would persuade you anyway.


Suffice it to say that those who frequent this thread like shaft driven cars, specifically the Automatix cars, and believe them to be, in their subjective opinion, either better or better for their "feel" and style of driving than belt, and let it go at that.

And then the discussion can get back to normal, and I can go back to my car-envy.
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Old 08-06-2015, 09:28 AM   #8630
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It honestly sounds like you came here trolling, heretic, couching it in "persuade me" language.
Well put. Anyway..the RFG. I think this is really clever and I hope it will be a major step. With the gearboxes tied together rigidly, the forces cancel each other out but as the drivetrain is connected at one point only on the baseplate, it should effectively isolate those forces from the rest of the car.

Presumably this would lead to a very smooth driving experience, especially in hard acceleration and braking zones, with a lot of traction as now the rear will be able to flex in a similar way to the front. Usually when that happens it leads to a low single laptime and consistency over the 5. I would want this.

It should be possible to play with the setup to take advantage of the extra traction, for example using heavier diff oil to increase exit punch.

Cannot wait.
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Old 08-06-2015, 09:41 AM   #8631
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Presumably this would lead to a very smooth driving experience, especially in hard acceleration and braking zones, with a lot of traction as now the rear will be able to flex in a similar way to the front. Usually when that happens it leads to a low single laptime and consistency over the 5. I would want this.
this is what we are all thinking too
you simply won't be able to just 'throw on' your existing setup. you'll need to do somethings to re-dial the car in. sound be fun...
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Old 08-06-2015, 11:27 AM   #8632
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That's the right mindset.... Float everything to get faster...
Don't allow belt designers to dictate what you can change on the Awesomatix...
A few mod wins will also shut the critics up too, but in all seriousness, why not run a lower turn motor than any belt car can handle safely, and win mod races that way??? Everytime I go from 4.5t to 3.5t to 2.5t I get faster laptimes. Belt cars are not effecient enough to run a 2.5t boosted for long without burning something, so only use a 2.5t in your Awesomatix, and you'll win everytime... It seems simple to me.... My 2.5t is way too fast for me to handle, but in the right hands, it can win the WORLDS....

Last edited by bertrandsv87; 08-06-2015 at 11:41 AM.
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Old 08-06-2015, 12:42 PM   #8633
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You ask to be persuaded, but when the (albeit subjective) reasons that people have are given, you say you doubt.
Absolutely! This sums up how I feel. I try to just have a tech discussion at my very humble level, I try my best to be rational and fair, like grown-ups are supposed to. In response, most people just repeat the same thing over and over again as if it was enough to make it a fact, without backing it up with any kind of data, or even an attempt at an argument- not even arguments as naive and uneductated as mine.

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I don't know if there are actual bench tests between shaft and belt - not sure which ones would actually apply. I know free spinning tests show that shafts spin free-er and longer than belt. I know that full-size vehicle tests have shown that belts are far less efficient than shaft (which is one reason why even FWD cars use gears and shafts rather than belts, constant-variable-transmissions notwithstanding) - but I don't think that any of these would persuade you anyway.
Actually you just brought up one of the only possibly relevant piece of info so far, re: real cars. Still a bit far from persuading me (and apart from that, I would have been interested in a proper discussion regarding the meaningfulness of the "launch the wheel" type tests,etc...), but at least it could have fed the discussion in a sensible way.

What saddens me a bit is to think that several people with actual engineering degrees will read this thread and not even take five minutes to weigh in, for or against (not that things have to be black or white of course.) Again: if someone here has solid knowledge pertaining to the subject, just drop it and I will be glad to have learned something... And probably a lot of other forum users too. What's the big deal?

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Originally Posted by Boomer View Post
Suffice it to say that those who frequent this thread like shaft driven cars, specifically the Automatix cars, and believe them to be, in their subjective opinion, either better or better for their "feel" and style of driving than belt, and let it go at that. And then the discussion can get back to normal, and I can go back to my car-envy.
Honestly, I don't see your point here. Can we have a slightly tech , respectfully critical debate about a toy car without people being so absurdly defensive and rude? Jeez...

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It honestly sounds like you came here trolling, heretic, couching it in "persuade me" language.
Not sure what you are trying to say... I know better than to pay attention to any kind of name-calling anyway

Here's a piece of interview from Oleg, from a few years back. Maybe some people will find it of relevance.

http://www.overrc.com/courses/course...protorusse.htm
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Old 08-06-2015, 04:03 PM   #8634
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What saddens me a bit is to think that several people with actual engineering degrees will read this thread and not even take five minutes to weigh in
They have time and time again.

Easiest way for you to see the difference yourself is to remove the pinion of a belt car and shaft drive car and spin the wheels.

Better still you could put both cars on a ramp to start them rolling and see how far both cars free roll on a level surface.
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Old 08-06-2015, 04:11 PM   #8635
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after driving a belt car and the awesomatix car, with same electronics and FDR, the motor came off 35 degrees cooler in the awesomatix car.... i don't need an engineering degree to tell me which car has less resistance.. :-)
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Old 08-06-2015, 05:03 PM   #8636
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Originally Posted by heretic View Post

What saddens me a bit is to think that several people with actual engineering degrees will read this thread and not even take five minutes to weigh in, for or against (not that things have to be black or white of course.)
Well guys I have an engineering degree and it really isn't worth that much in this conversation, especially if you want an actual answer, but I will tell what I know.

The Short Version:

At the RPM and loads we place on RC cars, and the fact that the driveline of an RC car must be massively overbuilt relative to its operating load to survive crashing it into things like solid barriers, the advantage of shaft drive over belt or vice-versa is very small, if it exists at all.

The Long Version:

We use toothed belts at low tension and low load in RC. While these are the most efficient belt type these belts operate well below their max strength, which is actually bad for efficiency as belts reach max efficiency at near 100% rated load capacity, but not so much as to be a real driver of meaningful power loss. I personally think that belt drive car manufacturers need to run the internal ratio of the car closer to 1:1 as larger pulleys at the spur gear will be slightly more efficient (they learned this in bicycles), but that is getting into splitting hairs.

In the Awesomatix, the shaft drive in-line with the motor is the most efficient means of getting power to both ends of the car. It has very low inertia to get started and little loss at speed, but at both ends of the car there is a 90 degree power transfer from the longitudinal shaft drive to the axles using straight-cut bevel gears, which again is the most efficient way possible but is not perfect. Whenever this happens there is going to be a loss in power, in the usual places like in the metal-on-metal slide at the gear face and possibly in other areas like vibration from the gears or even a slightly out-of-balance driveshaft which just doesn't occur in a belt drive. Also, in the Awesomatix there is an internal gear reduction of about 2:1, most likely for chassis twist reasons and that is also not optimal, as bevel gears are most efficient at 1:1.

In the end, all else being equal, both methods of power transfer are over 95% efficient in operation. Any inherent chassis advantage the Awesomatix has is in its engineering, suspension, exceptional construction, and the exceptional drivers who wheel it... not an inherent advantage of shaft-drive. Really, if shaft drive was all it took, why would anybody make a belt drive car anymore?
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Old 08-06-2015, 05:08 PM   #8637
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Old 08-06-2015, 05:10 PM   #8638
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Belt driven lessen the torque steer you get with shaft cars.. This is more noticeable in mod rather than stock, shaft driven with the ffg closed the gap by also reducing torque steer.
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Old 08-07-2015, 07:34 AM   #8639
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Just picked up one of these 2nd hand, but it looks like I am missing a front arm clip, I have managed to rig up an e-clip to secure it for now, but any idea where I can get the required bits in Australia (or dealer?) Also how the heck do you change out a spur?
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Old 08-07-2015, 08:06 AM   #8640
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You can order the clips from here:

Ships from US

http://shop.awesomatixusa.com/awesom.../a700-p07.html

Ships from Taiwan

http://shop.awesomatix.com/index.php?productID=722

Changing out spurs is fairly easy. Depends on what spur gear adapter you have. Original, SD1 or SD2. None of these options require you to disassemble the car. Remove the drive shaft by pulling it toward the spur gear, this will disengage the front end of the drive shaft. For original or SD2 you will need a thin wrench or http://shop.awesomatixusa.com/tranny-tool.html to remove AT12.

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Just picked up one of these 2nd hand, but it looks like I am missing a front arm clip, I have managed to rig up an e-clip to secure it for now, but any idea where I can get the required bits in Australia (or dealer?) Also how the heck do you change out a spur?
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