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Old 08-05-2015, 09:33 AM   #8611
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Well... I find your answer not overly fair-minded, but I'll respond anyway... Beats reading the Canterbury Tales

What advantage exactly is the shaft supposed to bring ? So far, if it does indeed bring a competitive edge, it appears to be in specific situations and it must be very close to negligible, and I'm being extremely charitable putting it this way... So why bother with this floating gearboxes nonsense? Is someone actually going to try to convince us that with both gearcases floating, we will at last see the superiority of the shaft drive? Please...

As for cars allegedly being all the same, I find it oversimplifying... but I'll agree with you that it's a bit boring. I honestly don't care too much, I'm more interested in a car's actual performance.

And even if somehow being different just for its own sake actually made sense, a belted Awesomatix would probably differ in numerous ways from other TCs...

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Awesomatix EP Touring Car (A700 Shaft Drive)-sten-graversen-belt-awesomatix.jpg  
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Old 08-05-2015, 10:27 AM   #8612
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Originally Posted by heretic View Post
Well... I find your answer not overly fair-minded, but I'll respond anyway...
I'm surprised you're looking for opinions supporting you in a community dedicated to the love/enjoyment of this car.

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What advantage exactly is the shaft supposed to bring ? So far, if it does indeed bring a competitive edge, it appears to be in specific situations and it must be very close to negligible, and I'm being extremely charitable putting it this way... So why bother with this floating gearboxes nonsense? Is someone actually going to try to convince us that with both gearcases floating, we will at last see the superiority of the shaft drive? Please...
That may be the root problem here, if you've never driven a shaft drive car you won't know that they definitely pull harder out of a corner, the power is instant. That's a definite advantage in stock. It's questionable benefit in modified.

I won't disagree that a belt version of the car might be interesting, but if nothing else this car is a testing ground for interesting ideas.

The car is not for everyone, yet, it requires more OCD that most TCs. If it's not a fit for yah, so be it.

As I started saying, bringing inexperienced criticism to this forum isn't going to garner much love.
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Old 08-05-2015, 10:31 AM   #8613
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RFG assembly instruction.
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File Type: pdf RFG assembling diagram S.pdf (344.7 KB, 165 views)
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Old 08-05-2015, 11:05 AM   #8614
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Originally Posted by erchn View Post
I'm surprised you're looking for opinions supporting you in a community dedicated to the love/enjoyment of this car.
Ahem, my bad, I thought this was just an internet forum to discuss the car.

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That may be the root problem here, if you've never driven a shaft drive car you won't know that they definitely pull harder out of a corner, the power is instant. That's a definite advantage in stock. It's questionable benefit in modified.

I won't disagree that a belt version of the car might be interesting, but if nothing else this car is a testing ground for interesting ideas.

The car is not for everyone, yet, it requires more OCD that most TCs. If it's not a fit for yah, so be it.

As I started saying, bringing inexperienced criticism to this forum isn't going to garner much love.
I throw in the towel. You win.
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Old 08-05-2015, 11:18 AM   #8615
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My comments were mainly directed at your logic of not wanting a car anymore because there was more options and parts available. Why not get the A700L2? It is the car in its simplest form without all the extras.

No one is saying shaft is superior, but if you don't like having options and want more of the same, there are tons of competitive belt cars to choose from.

As for me, I'm not buying the RFG since I just race stock. It is nice to know it is available as option.
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Old 08-05-2015, 11:41 AM   #8616
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My comments were mainly directed at your logic of not wanting a car anymore because there was more options and parts available. Why not get the A700L2? It is the car in its simplest form without all the extras.

No one is saying shaft is superior, but if you don't like having options and want more of the same, there are tons of competitive belt cars to choose from.

As for me, I'm not buying the RFG since I just race stock. It is nice to know it is available as option.
(*turns sarcasm OFF*)

Thanks for the polite response. I wasn't trying to rant about the FFG or RFG being a hop-up, really. Like I said, I tried to let the cost discussion out of this. My tentative point would have been the same if the car came with both FG out of the box and cost the same as the other high-end TCs: It seems like an awful lot of trouble for something which would be a non-issue with belts.

(*fights the urge to resort to sarcasm*)

As for the "pulls harder out of the corner" theory, I am very dubious, to say the least. No matter how hard I've tried to convince myself, I've just honestly never seen a difference between my TC3 and my belted TCs in this area.

Granted, my driving skills are far from stellar, so there's that.
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Old 08-05-2015, 01:37 PM   #8617
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a tc3 is not an Awesomatix.....

If you watch my car in USGT it pulls about .5 car length out of every low speed corner and 2-5 on the straight on every car, they are all belts with the same electronics.
Everybody always asks after the race what motor and FDR and once I tell them they usually say , oh I tried that and it was slower, D4SS 3.77
I didn't win or get fast lap because I had a tuning issue, made my rear loose in one corner, I just found once I took the car apart

fast lap was 16.599
my fast with a 90degree spin on one corner every lap was 16.885

erchn can tell you , he was there
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Old 08-05-2015, 02:11 PM   #8618
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I don't doubt for a second that the Awesomatix is really fast and comes out of the corners really strong.

What I can't understand is why specifically the shaft drive would make it so. Is it better efficiency at low speed in the drivetrain? I am really skeptical about that, (because a well maintained belt drivetrain can be really smooth) but in all fairness I have no real data about that and even less the ability to interpret that data. But IIRC M. Babich himself clearly stated that the differences in efficiency between belt and shaft were absolutely negligible.

Is it the belts flexing ? I want to say "BS" (but I'll change it to "very skeptical" ) because the belts we use extend very little lengthwise and certainly not a sufficient amount to (comparatively) slow the car down when throttling. Again, show me that I'm wrong with meaningful data and I'll gladly stand corrected. And I'll say thanks for teaching me something.

What seems much more likely to me, is just that the car has a very well designed suspension which gives great forward traction, and it also has a very low center of gravity. These things allow just that tiny bit of extra speed in the corners. I find this theory more plausible to account for the advantage of the A700 in some cases.

I'll try to say it differently: people witness that the Awesomatix has an edge in such-and-such conditions, and since its most striking feature is the shaft they maybe assume the car is fast because of the shaft. I never denied the correlation, I just want to question the alleged causation.
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Old 08-05-2015, 03:26 PM   #8619
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I don't want to take sides here...

My experience with seeing Awesomatix in competition concluded in different results. In the hands of a capable driver it looked fantastic on track. Sometimes I saw unbelieveable cornerspeeds. Then later this driver changed to the BD7 and dominated as strong as before. Cornerspeeds stayed awesome, too.
Then in the hands of a less gifted driver (clublevel not world championship material) the results differed. First of all he had problems adapting the car fast enough to the racetrack. And then he had no advantage at all.

I really love the engineering and the ideas, I even like all the floating stuff, but until now the car has not proven its superiority over the standard concept. I would have loved to see the design mashing up the market, forcing other companies to come up with new concepts. Unfortunately it didn't happen, yet.

Nevertheless the Awesomatix is an enrichement for all racers. I hope Olegs business stays strong for a lot more years.
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Old 08-05-2015, 04:39 PM   #8620
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The RFG is a design a long time coming. It provides much more rear grip and chassis rear flex. Earlier prototypes have shown positive improvements for modified tc racing. This could also be a key part in asphalt racing. Only further testing will tell. Should be exciting...
What would be the initial thoughts of its potential in 17.5 carpet racing???
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Old 08-05-2015, 04:40 PM   #8621
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Interesting conversation. I have been wondering the same thing about if the shaft is what gives the car the edge or not when it comes to accelerating.

My speculation is nothing is more instantaneous than metal to metal drive to the wheels. There is minimal play in the drivetrain, so transitioning from braking to accelerating is incredibly smooth and quick. Kind of like the difference between riding a chain driven motorcycle that has some slop vs a shaft drive through twisties where you have to accelerate/decelerate a lot. Also, have you (general you) spun the drive train of an Awesomatix compared to any other belt car? The Ax will keep spinning as if it has almost no resistance, where the belt car isn't quite as free wheeling. I'm assuming its simply the bend of the belt causing this slight resistance to roll, but again... pure speculation since I don't currently drive a belt car for direct comparison.

I have been toying around with the idea of picking up a Yokomo or Xray simply to see if I do as well it as I have been with my Evo 2. My previous car was a TC3... and as JayL astutely pointed out... its no Awesomatix
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Old 08-05-2015, 07:06 PM   #8622
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I just fail to see how this "directness" (be it measured by play in the drivetrain or flexing/stretching of the materials, or adding both) is supposed to translate into faster acceleration. I have a super beat-up RDX on my desk right now and if I rock a front wheel back and forth with the spur blocked I get a rotation of +/-5degrees at the wheel, tops. Now at what minimum speed are your slowest wheels spinning in the slowest corner of a tiny track? I'd guess several dozen of RPM. So... compare that to the 5degrees... you see why I am really skeptical. In terms of traveled distance, the caricature of slop/flex I just took as an example would translate as approx.... 2,6 millimeters of car travel during your transition from braking to accelerating. (By the way, have you (general you :-) seen a super slow-mo of a TC on carpet ? One T. Bergfeldt posted one years ago, maybe it is still on youtube. The car is just floating and sliding and drifting on the carpet. Quite unbelievable). Bottom line: I just feel the shaft drivetrain of the AX is just not at all a satisfying explanation for the Ax "edge" that has been reported in specific conditions. (I am also under the impression that "Directness" and "forward traction", are in fact very loosely related things anyway. Directness or not, what matters is to have your tire lay it down on the floor with as little spin as possible, isn't it ?)

Now if I get this right, plenty of respectable, credible drivers say the car really has an undeniable leg-up in some situations ? I'd guess high-grip carpet, stock motors? -Correct me if needed. I am really going out on a limb for the sake of the discussion here, so don't be mean if I say something false or plain silly... It seems to me that this "edge" could be explained much better, by some peculiarity or another in the suspension of the Ax. Say, (just as an example!) the car has one feature in its rear geometry that is unique to the Ax and this peculiarity, say, tends to favor corner speed at the expense of forward traction. In that case, with the rather slow motor on high grip, maybe, just maybe, this could be a good trade-off, because what you lose in forward traction is more than compensated in corner speed, and the low CG helps even further. I also find it very plausible that a gain in corner speed in the hairpin before the straight translates into a 2 or 3 car lengths by the end of the straight, no mystery here. Now on low-grip asphalt with a mod motor, maybe this same (hypothetical) rear-end peculiarity is actually a disadvantage because you would want all the forward traction you could get and you don't care as much about corner speed, you drive a bit "point-and-shoot".

This pretty simple (and I think not too unrealistic) "suspension" theory, or another like that, manages to make sense of quite a few facts, with more success than any "directness of the drivetrain" theory, or "free-spinning of the wheels" theory, as far as I can see. Aaaanyway. Thanks for humoring me a little. I was just trying to say this: I really love the Awesomatix car for its suspension, and it seems to me the shaft drive brings no extra performance VS belts, but can bring a lot more headache.
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Old 08-05-2015, 09:04 PM   #8623
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What would be the initial thoughts of its potential in 17.5 carpet racing???
Don't know yet. Will be running it first on asphalt myself and carpet mid September
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Old 08-05-2015, 09:14 PM   #8624
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ThIs debate is about 10-15 years old about which drivetrain is better. Started with dual belt vs tri belt , then dual belt vs shaft, Dual vs shaft and single belt.
No matter what drive train or car if a driver is good they will find a way to be fast.Hell if ya gave volker a cinder block with wheels he would still be fast
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Old 08-05-2015, 10:59 PM   #8625
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The car in it's current form is great for spec racing classes. Mod is the area were it seems to struggle. They are coming up with creative ways to get it to feel like a belt car, but it seems like it would just be easier to make a belt version. As always just because they release a new hop-up does not mean you half to buy it.

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