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Old 03-11-2014, 09:46 AM   #5896
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Originally Posted by blackshark3 View Post
I felt lost in setting up the car after converting to FFG...before with traverse mount motor, with the AM19 on 4 corners mounting the links at the outside holes and using the recommended setup the car ran quite good on my track which is outdoor aspault with good grip and wide bends. However, once converted to ffg, again following the recommened setup at first, the car became so understeer at mid corner that i had to let it roll all the way through the corner. Then I began to change the A and B position but now i found myself even more lost. Any help appreciated
I spent a long time muddling through set up too. Playing a lot with the shock settings. Then one day I put on fairly standard shock settings from Freddy/Viljami. They were much stiffer than what I had before and it allowed me to feel the whole set up of the car and tune all the geometry to get where I wanted to be. This is the setup sheet I followed for shocks: http://www.petitrc.com/reglages/awes...ice2013110103/

Now I have this experience I sometimes change shock settings but only really to handle bumps. I find they change the way the car feels but not really large handling differences or large differences in lap time. Even though the sheet I link is for carpet I still suggest starting there then my approach is change damping gap to get the damping feel right and then change spring gap to get spring feel right.

If your car pushes a lot with the FFG then check the FFG stops aren't too far out. Also following some advice given by a UK team driver you can do a lot of tuning with this car with droop. Little droop can make the car super responsive but it will push mid corner, more droop particularly at the rear can help the car rotate. Personally I have found eliminating bump steer can also help mid corner as I found when I applied the throttle it was stealing my steering away.
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Old 03-11-2014, 10:29 AM   #5897
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So hypothetically speaking, let's say I wanted to calm my car down a bit for
Higher bite surfaces... On my other TCs, one way I could do that would be to increase the dampening rate (go from 350 to 450wt), but I clearly wouldn't be required to change the spring rate.

As I read the section in the manual that explains the shock settings, the "A" adjustment is used to adjust the dampening AND the spring rate simultaneously, however the "B" adjustment is used to just adjust the spring rate. So if I didn't want to adjust the spring rate, but instead just increase the dampening, would I make the "A" value larger and the "B" value smaller to reach my desired setting?

Further, using another hypothetical situation... Let's say I wanted to get a little less steering/more rear bite mid corner... One way I would get that with my normal TC would be to lay the front shocks in a hole or stand the rear shocks up a hole... But that adjustment isn't an option with this car... What might I do to have a similar affect with this car given matching front and rear suspension geometry?

this is a long question -- but lets see how i can help. lets start w/ the basics--

1- adjustment "A" is for dampening. higher values = more dampening

2- adjustment "B" is for spring rate. higher values = less spring rate

3- if you want to "lay down" your shocks -- that is making the spring softer. so, just adjust the "B" value (the hook) and increase the value to make it softer.

4- if you want to "stand up" your shocsk -- what is making the spring harder. so, just adjust the "B" value (the hook) and decrease the value making it harder.

i don't want to start a discussion necessarily if i agree w/ your tuning suggestions above. the "tools" listed above should be a great place to start.

additionally, over the past year, on a high bite surface in america, we've found it smart to try--
1- use less front sauce (maybe even glue front side walls)
2- less front camber (don't be afraid to run 1 degree)
3- increase front track width w/ 0.5mm wheel shims
4- decreasing the rear spring rate
5- increase the front dampening
6- increase the front bar thickness (but if you go too far -- you will traction roll)
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Old 03-11-2014, 10:34 AM   #5898
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I spent a long time muddling through set up too. Playing a lot with the shock settings. Then one day I put on fairly standard shock settings from Freddy/Viljami. They were much stiffer than what I had before and it allowed me to feel the whole set up of the car and tune all the geometry to get where I wanted to be. This is the setup sheet I followed for shocks: http://www.petitrc.com/reglages/awes...ice2013110103/

Now I have this experience I sometimes change shock settings but only really to handle bumps. I find they change the way the car feels but not really large handling differences or large differences in lap time. Even though the sheet I link is for carpet I still suggest starting there then my approach is change damping gap to get the damping feel right and then change spring gap to get spring feel right.

If your car pushes a lot with the FFG then check the FFG stops aren't too far out. Also following some advice given by a UK team driver you can do a lot of tuning with this car with droop. Little droop can make the car super responsive but it will push mid corner, more droop particularly at the rear can help the car rotate. Personally I have found eliminating bump steer can also help mid corner as I found when I applied the throttle it was stealing my steering away.

please be careful when just performing a 'pure' numerical analysis of shocks. i can put together a shock package that is pound for pound the same w/in the setup sheet -- but they feel different on the bench, and on the track.

you need to get the dampening rates high enough so the cars don't feel springy.

again -- it all depends upon track conditions. from what I understand, Viljami (veal-ya-me for all us americans..) runs on a roll out track, in a very cold hall. because of that, his setups should be amazing when there is low grip. i know Josh started w/ Viljami's setup going into Snowbirds, but we had to make some whole sale changes throughout the weekend, especially before round 4 after both switching over to the C01AL.
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Old 03-11-2014, 10:48 AM   #5899
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Originally Posted by hanulec View Post
this is a long question -- but lets see how i can help. lets start w/ the basics--

1- adjustment "A" is for dampening. higher values = more dampening

2- adjustment "B" is for spring rate. higher values = less spring rate

3- if you want to "lay down" your shocks -- that is making the spring softer. so, just adjust the "B" value (the hook) and increase the value to make it softer.

4- if you want to "stand up" your shocsk -- what is making the spring harder. so, just adjust the "B" value (the hook) and decrease the value making it harder.
These are my shocks tuning parameters as well for A700, in relation to how normal shocks work.

Well said, Mike.
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Old 03-11-2014, 10:49 AM   #5900
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Thanks for the input Mike. That helps. Just for clarification though... The manual I have states that when I adjust the "A" value, I am adjusting dampening AND spring rate simultaneously... As I read your post above, do you treat the "A" adjustment as a dampening only adjustment or spring rate also? I just wanted a some clarification! Thanks in advance.
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Old 03-11-2014, 12:22 PM   #5901
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for clarification, on the top of page 36 of the manual is what i am referring to here... thanks
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Old 03-11-2014, 12:49 PM   #5902
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please be careful when just performing a 'pure' numerical analysis of shocks. i can put together a shock package that is pound for pound the same w/in the setup sheet -- but they feel different on the bench, and on the track.

you need to get the dampening rates high enough so the cars don't feel springy.
Not sure I follow you. The damping rate will have changed so I'd expect them to feel different on the bench and track. In this situation we are looking for a change.

I think the comments on this thread about it being a feel thing or set it up so it doesn't feel springy or change things until they feel right is correct but not useful for someone trying to find their way with a new car. It's also very hard to compare feel unless you own 2 cars set up the same and it's hard to know how things should feel unless you already have it right. I'm not knocking anyone for making those comments just feel that things need to be quantifiable, at least whilst getting started.

For myself it was only when I went to Freddy's shock settings that the car started working for me properly. Since using those settings I have tried small and large changes and have never been happy with the results so always end up reverting back to them. At least I have a shock setting that work for me at most the tracks I race on and until I become a master of setting springs and damping that will have to be good enough.
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Old 03-11-2014, 01:06 PM   #5903
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Question on building a gd2 - should there be 2 bearings per diff side like the gd1, or only one bearing per side?

Thanks for any help.
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Old 03-11-2014, 01:30 PM   #5904
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Question on building a gd2 - should there be 2 bearings per diff side like the gd1, or only one bearing per side?

Thanks for any help.
Just one. You might find my article on the GD2 useful: http://www.thercracer.com/2013/11/aw...ld-review.html
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Old 03-11-2014, 05:16 PM   #5905
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Originally Posted by gocoogs View Post
Thanks for the input Mike. That helps. Just for clarification though... The manual I have states that when I adjust the "A" value, I am adjusting dampening AND spring rate simultaneously... As I read your post above, do you treat the "A" adjustment as a dampening only adjustment or spring rate also? I just wanted a some clarification! Thanks in advance.
we need Oleg to answer.
i'm treating these settings just the way i've described them.

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Originally Posted by Quantra View Post
Not sure I follow you. The damping rate will have changed so I'd expect them to feel different on the bench and track. In this situation we are looking for a change.

I think the comments on this thread about it being a feel thing or set it up so it doesn't feel springy or change things until they feel right is correct but not useful for someone trying to find their way with a new car. It's also very hard to compare feel unless you own 2 cars set up the same and it's hard to know how things should feel unless you already have it right. I'm not knocking anyone for making those comments just feel that things need to be quantifiable, at least whilst getting started.

For myself it was only when I went to Freddy's shock settings that the car started working for me properly. Since using those settings I have tried small and large changes and have never been happy with the results so always end up reverting back to them. At least I have a shock setting that work for me at most the tracks I race on and until I become a master of setting springs and damping that will have to be good enough.
busting out a setup sheet -- the point i'm making is that you can say have A=0 and B=0 and on another shock A=5 and B=5 they come out with the same numerical value, but feel differently. [See the attached picture]

you don't need to own two cars to do the comparison. find the fastest person at your track -- and ask if you can feel their cars. get both race ready minus body and push down on the front and rear a few times. ask what they think too.

trust me, it takes a lot of failure before you hit on perfect setups yourself...

Quote:
Originally Posted by RC Professor View Post
Question on building a gd2 - should there be 2 bearings per diff side like the gd1, or only one bearing per side?

Thanks for any help.
one b85 on each side
go to http://www.awesomatixusa.com/p/gd2.html and click exploded view
Attached Thumbnails
Awesomatix EP Touring Car-140312-shocks.png  
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Old 03-11-2014, 06:50 PM   #5906
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Originally Posted by gocoogs View Post
Thanks for the input Mike. That helps. Just for clarification though... The manual I have states that when I adjust the "A" value, I am adjusting dampening AND spring rate simultaneously... As I read your post above, do you treat the "A" adjustment as a dampening only adjustment or spring rate also? I just wanted a some clarification! Thanks in advance.
Correct me if I'm wrong
You can adjust A and unless you adjust B then They move together.
You can adjust B but it will not change A.
So you could have A&B set at 3mm
And when you adjust A again to say 4mm B will be 4mm also.
You can set A at 3mm and B at 2mm, but if B is locked and you move A to 2mm B will be 1mm.
If you move A to 4mm then B will be 3mm
Does that sound correct?

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Old 03-11-2014, 07:03 PM   #5907
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Is everyone cutting the axles down so they don't snag a board?
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Old 03-11-2014, 07:18 PM   #5908
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Originally Posted by chiefj48 View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong
You can adjust A and unless you adjust B then They move together.
You can adjust B but it will not change A.
So you could have A&B set at 3mm
And when you adjust A again to say 4mm B will be 4mm also.
You can set A at 3mm and B at 2mm, but if B is locked and you move A to 2mm B will be 1mm.
If you move A to 4mm then B will be 3mm
Does that sound correct?

I was thinking the same at first, but when you move A in or out, the distance on B or the "hook" does not change.

However, if you look these 2 pictures. The first one shows B = 3mm A = 3mm making the spring rate = 108.4 gf/mm

If you just change the A to 4mm that now makes the spring rate 117.6 gf/mm



Now if you want to increase A but keep the same spring rate you would also need to change B to 3.9mm. (I know .9 is not an option with the gauges but this is just for demonstration.)

Attached Thumbnails
Awesomatix EP Touring Car-screen-shot-2014-03-11-8.21.18-pm.png   Awesomatix EP Touring Car-screen-shot-2014-03-11-8.22.39-pm.png  

Last edited by Travis S; 03-11-2014 at 08:00 PM. Reason: Edited A and B. Had them mixed up. Thanks Magnet Top. :)
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Old 03-11-2014, 07:18 PM   #5909
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Originally Posted by chiefj48 View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong
You can adjust A and unless you adjust B then They move together.
You can adjust B but it will not change A.
So you could have A&B set at 3mm
And when you adjust A again to say 4mm B will be 4mm also.
You can set A at 3mm and B at 2mm, but if B is locked and you move A to 2mm B will be 1mm.
If you move A to 4mm then B will be 3mm
Does that sound correct?

" B " is a "passenger" of " A " ( the carrier ).

Simply, for example : if the goal is to maintain spring rate but change damping rate : Move " A " some distance , then move " B " the equal distance but OPPOSITE direction.

( Note. " B " is the position of the RHS ( ride height screw ). The RHS acts as the leverage point on the "leaf" style spring that determines spring rate )

So if you move " A " 2mm East, then move " B " 2mm West. You have successfully changed your damping rate and kept your spring rate exactly the same as before you started.

The only issue comes up when you don't have enough adjustment range in "B". So you sometimes have to use SRS I or SRS II depending on what you are trying to accomplish. The difference between SRS I and SRS II is 4mm.

Jake D.
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Last edited by Magnet Top; 03-11-2014 at 07:46 PM.
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Old 03-11-2014, 07:19 PM   #5910
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Is everyone cutting the axles down so they don't snag a board?
Yes !
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