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Old 10-04-2013, 11:31 AM   #4441
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The units can't be converted across. Gram-Force/mm is a unit of torque.
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Old 10-04-2013, 11:50 AM   #4442
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The units can't be converted across. Gram-Force/mm is a unit of torque.
Huh? grams per millimeter is a wheel spring rate, isn't it? I seem to remember Oleg explaining that he looked at the apring rates and motion ratios of competitive cars to valculate their wheel rates, in order to determine the starting point for the A700. You should be able to go the other way, no?

-Mike
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Old 10-04-2013, 12:06 PM   #4443
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Gram and lb are a units of weight. Gram-force is a gravitational metric unit of force.
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Old 10-04-2013, 02:39 PM   #4444
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The units can't be converted across. Gram-Force/mm is a unit of torque.
Please note that gF/mm ( springs rate unit ) is not the same as gFmm ( torque unit).
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Old 10-04-2013, 02:50 PM   #4445
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Gram and lb are a units of weight. Gram-force is a gravitational metric unit of force.
There's also a pounds force, too, though, isn't there? The force exerted by 1 pound at standard gravity. While grams force is the force exerted by 1 gram in standard gravity. Since both include gravity, you can just ignore gravity and compare grams to pounds.

1 gf / mm * 0.001 kg / g * 2.2 lb / kg * 25.4 mm / in = 0.05588 lbf / in

58.6 gf/mm = 3.27 lbf / in
70.9 gf/mm = 3.96 lbf / in

That seems awfully soft for a wheel rate on a TC, though. But I'm not sure what a typical TC motion ratio is.

-Mike
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Old 10-04-2013, 03:30 PM   #4446
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There's also a pounds force, too, though, isn't there? The force exerted by 1 pound at standard gravity. While grams force is the force exerted by 1 gram in standard gravity. Since both include gravity, you can just ignore gravity and compare grams to pounds.

1 gf / mm * 0.001 kg / g * 2.2 lb / kg * 25.4 mm / in = 0.05588 lbf / in

58.6 gf/mm = 3.27 lbf / in
70.9 gf/mm = 3.96 lbf / in

That seems awfully soft for a wheel rate on a TC, though. But I'm not sure what a typical TC motion ratio is.

-Mike

The difference in suspension leverage, on the leaf spring, might have something to do with the lower numbers needed.
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Old 10-04-2013, 06:46 PM   #4447
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Hey Grippgoat
You have remember ,there is no shock towers
Mike right .. the suspension leverage ,they are not compression
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Old 10-04-2013, 07:07 PM   #4448
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Grippgoat
most of us still learning the suspension stiffness and dampering..
it take a lot of time to get is right setting for every tracks grip condition. just .2mm increment will make a differernce .
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Old 10-05-2013, 08:33 AM   #4449
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Have a couple questions about the Larry and Mike setup sheet and a request for Oleg.

Mike/Larry Setup:
On the top deck there is only 1 screw shown. Is it with or without the screw collars? That leads me to this: Is there a way to add a checkbox next to the top deck that says with collars or something.

For the rear there is 2 holes this ball stud can be mounted in. What one is it? Also can this be added in the pdf.



Oleg: Anyway you can get some wider wheel hexes made for optional parts? Or can you just over engineer a way to make them adjustable! I know you can use shims but there is a limit on how many you can use with some rims.
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Old 10-05-2013, 08:52 AM   #4450
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Travis - #1 a single st09/red dot in the center of the top deck front and rear shows a "fixed" top deck design. Four other screws are used - 2 front, 2 rear.

#2 the setup sheet has only one hole. I use the hole that creates the shorter link (nearest to inside of car).
I"be never tested the different holes for the rear toe back to back in attempt to understand their perf impact.
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Old 10-05-2013, 08:59 AM   #4451
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I don't think it matters to be close to the to 190mm. The wider the car, the less lateral grip you have. If you want to be wide to combat fears of traction rolls, I'd recommend just lowering your roll centers.

if you don't cut your axles (which is crazy to do indoors...) You could always use more and more wheel shims.

Take a look at Gees last two stock setups. There he adds a shim under the am06s. This widens the car -- which can make it easier to drive. His base shock settings are very aggressive so you have to be a "wheel" to hang on to them.
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Old 10-05-2013, 09:44 AM   #4452
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanulec View Post
I don't think it matters to be close to the to 190mm. The wider the car, the less lateral grip you have. If you want to be wide to combat fears of traction rolls, I'd recommend just lowering your roll centers.

if you don't cut your axles (which is crazy to do indoors...) You could always use more and more wheel shims.

Take a look at Gees last two stock setups. There he adds a shim under the am06s. This widens the car -- which can make it easier to drive. His base shock settings are very aggressive so you have to be a "wheel" to hang on to them.
Well, this wasn't really for 17.5. It would be a GREAT option to have for USVTA. That may not be a big deal for you guys but it tends to be the class of choice in this area having rather large turnouts and national events. If you run into EA in Vegas ask him how much he liked running USVTA at the southern nationals a few weeks ago.

I doubt this will happen, but I guy can dream can't he and it doesn't hurt to ask.

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Originally Posted by hanulec View Post
Travis - #1 a single st09/red dot in the center of the top deck front and rear shows a "fixed" top deck design. Four other screws are used - 2 front, 2 rear.
Is there something that shows the "implied" stuff on the setup sheet. That might stop me from asking so many questions.

Last edited by Travis S; 10-05-2013 at 10:00 AM.
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Old 10-05-2013, 11:01 AM   #4453
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Petitrc has a break down of setup sheet "translations ". After iic I'll see what we can do to make this more clear. At iic I'm going to make sure to take a pic or two of Freddy setting his droop with gauges.
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Old 10-05-2013, 01:23 PM   #4454
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis S View Post
.....
Oleg: Anyway you can get some wider wheel hexes made for optional parts? Or can you just over engineer a way to make them adjustable! I know you can use shims but there is a limit on how many you can use with some rims.
Please let me know what popular rims are not suitable for our wheel hexes + shims? Are the using of these rims so important for good race result?

In case of sufficient inquiries we can produce the wider hexes of course.
But I would like to know first:
What is the width limit for USVTA cars?
What is the reason to get the wider USVTA car? Traction rolling issue or anything else?
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Old 10-05-2013, 02:05 PM   #4455
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis S View Post
....
Mike/Larry Setup:
On the top deck there is only 1 screw shown. Is it with or without the screw collars? That leads me to this: Is there a way to add a checkbox next to the top deck that says with collars or something.

For the rear there is 2 holes this ball stud can be mounted in. What one is it? Also can this be added in the pdf......
The setups sheets from some our drivers still have the mistakes in the top deck setting indication.
So I have to explain again the main ideas of red dots in the flex settings of our setup sheet ( both for top deck and lower deck also):

#1. The red dot indicates that this point is fixed against any shifting ( lateral and longitudinal). You can provide it by screw or by AT21/AT21S/ST24 ball stud.

#2. ST09 under outer (side) screws/AT21/AT21S/ST24 on the top deck prevents the fixing of this point of top deck and it should be indicated without a red dot according to #1.
(This is due to ST09 are higher than top deck thickness and these outer holes are bigger than ST09 diameter).

#3. ST09 under the central screw on the top deck doesn't prevent the fixing of this central point against the lateral and longitudinal shifting as the central hole has exactly the same diameter as ST09.
So this point should be with red dot even with ST09 installed into this hole (according to #1).

In case of somebody will be able to transform these rules to the more clear and shorter form I will be very grateful.
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