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Old 05-03-2013, 05:45 PM   #8086
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Oh I didn't mean to come off as negative in any way. I really enjoy seeing all this creativity and problem solving that's going on!
Manny,
You certainly did not come off that way at all!! I was just raggin' in general about the next GENERATION already, before the first race even!!

You are the Ali'i of creativity and HARD work!! I'm sure everyone on here respect and applaud you for the unbelievable work you are doing!!!

I'd have to have a po'o in my puka to think that!!!!

Hope I remembered those words correctly!!!
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Old 05-03-2013, 05:52 PM   #8087
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That is correct. The thrust bearing assembly for the F103 is in the wheel instead of in the hub like the F104. However the width of the assembly is the same between the F103 and the F104. The width and off-set of the rims is what makes the car 180mm or 200mm.
That what I thought. Putting the thrust bearing out side of the wheel on the VTA stuff wouild nt be cool even if it worked. ON the tammy stuff it's hidden by bing "down in a hole".

From my research it looks like 1880mm (188mm in 1/10 scale) was the usual or mandatory max width for F1 cars in 1967-1968. Haven't found the rules but have found specs that seem to indicate that was the case...SO 190mm should be ideal....
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Old 05-03-2013, 05:59 PM   #8088
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I've seen it done with the F109 running F104 wheels with the stock axle...it is really hard to notice the thrust bearing assembly on the F104 wheels once it is on the track. But I think the VTA wheels would show it more.
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Old 05-03-2013, 06:08 PM   #8089
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I was able to sit and look at my F103/F104 diff. Optimally it would be best to just replace the diff cap with a piece that has the 12mm hub machined onto it as well as fresh full length threads. On the other side you could just do another piece like tamiya part # 3455372 and make it spaced out to be even with this thing and 12mm.

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Old 05-03-2013, 06:22 PM   #8090
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Originally Posted by Marty Peterson View Post
190mm is what I believe were shooting for David. I will not know for sure till the parts I ordered from shapeways get here or Chris come through with the Parts, Tamiya front suspension & rear hubs I ordered and or someone else comes up with something but we are working on it buddy, right now I can go from 185ish to 190,

190mm wide sounds great to me Marty! It should look good and help the overall handling too!
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Old 05-03-2013, 06:32 PM   #8091
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Originally Posted by Marty Peterson View Post
190mm is what I believe were shooting for David. I will not know for sure till the parts I ordered from shapeways get here or Chris come through with the Parts, Tamiya front suspension & rear hubs I ordered and or someone else comes up with something but we are working on it buddy, right now I can go from 185ish to 190,
Marty and David,
Not exactly sure where the 190mm max. width came from for the VF-1 rules and since I have not put one together with the required wheels and tires I don't know wha tthe actual measurements are.

That being said, when I looked up the specs of the 1967 Lotus 49 and Eagle TG-1, the width was listed as 1880mm so 190 mm in 1/10th scale is great.

David, as far is the front and rear widths being different, yes and no, kinda! The track width, middle of tire to middle of tire, is the same on the Eagle and Lotus at the rear but 25mm less in the front of the Lotus, the Eagle is the same both front and rear. So the difference is mainly in the difference in the overall width of the tires themselves. The VTA rear tires are wider in the rear than the ones used in the front but it will take a lot of figuring to decide how much the overall width changes.
Also since the I cannot find dimensions for all cars and the ones I can find vary seem to vary in track but not overall width, I figure widths under the max were used for tuning and such. I wouldn't wnat to require a guy with an Eagle paint job to have the front width 185mm and the Lotus guy be 180mm while both rears are 188! 190 seems reasonable and if an individual wants to make his widths closer to scale, he could use spacers and might need special hubs in front.

Things get really hard to define within the next few years '68-'70 as, again from what I could find, the max width I could see was still 1880mm but the track was less, -100mm for the Lotus 49B. Looking at the pics the Tires are wider but the extra width is toward the inside not used t make the car wider.

I'm sure this is probably more information than anyone wants! I'm trying to make a case to leave the max width at 190 and not try to match pictures to dimensions....
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Old 05-03-2013, 06:41 PM   #8092
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Originally Posted by aarcobra View Post
Marty and David,
Not exactly sure where the 190mm max. width came from for the VF-1 rules and since I have not put one together with the required wheels and tires I don't know wha tthe actual measurements are.

That being said, when I looked up the specs of the 1967 Lotus 49 and Eagle TG-1, the width was listed as 1880mm so 190 mm in 1/10th scale is great.

David, as far is the front and rear widths being different, yes and no, kinda! The track width, middle of tire to middle of tire, is the same on the Eagle and Lotus at the rear but 25mm less in the front of the Lotus, the Eagle is the same both front and rear. So the difference is mainly in the difference in the overall width of the tires themselves. The VTA rear tires are wider in the rear than the ones used in the front but it will take a lot of figuring to decide how much the overall width changes.
Also since the I cannot find dimensions for all cars and the ones I can find vary seem to vary in track but not overall width, I figure widths under the max were used for tuning and such. I wouldn't wnat to require a guy with an Eagle paint job to have the front width 185mm and the Lotus guy be 180mm while both rears are 188! 190 seems reasonable and if an individual wants to make his widths closer to scale, he could use spacers and might need special hubs in front.

Things get really hard to define within the next few years '68-'70 as, again from what I could find, the max width I could see was still 1880mm but the track was less, -100mm for the Lotus 49B. Looking at the pics the Tires are wider but the extra width is toward the inside not used t make the car wider.

I'm sure this is probably more information than anyone wants! I'm trying to make a case to leave the max width at 190 and not try to match pictures to dimensions....
Very well said!! Thank you Ned, I agree completely!!
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Old 05-03-2013, 06:51 PM   #8093
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Originally Posted by PROMODVETTE View Post
I was able to sit and look at my F103/F104 diff. Optimally it would be best to just replace the diff cap with a piece that has the 12mm hub machined onto it as well as fresh full length threads. On the other side you could just do another piece like tamiya part # 3455372 and make it spaced out to be even with this thing and 12mm.

The left hub you suggest is essentially the same as the 103 get hub and it works fine.

I see some issues with the diff cap idea. My quick and dirty check shows that to get to 190mm wide the cap has to extend about 13mm (1/2") beyond the current surface where the wheel interfaces. Not saying it will not work but the fit of the cap into the diff will have to much more secure than the current parts. Since the hex is on the diff adapter the alignment of the wheel is to that part and the cap merely holds the wheel snugly against the hex face and the wheel is concentric. the cap with the hex woild seem to me to wobble around unless you change the attaching method, thereby complicating the modification.

(wow, that's alot of "ands"! At least it was not "and ah"!! lol
???
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Old 05-03-2013, 06:54 PM   #8094
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Very well said!! Thank you Ned, I agree completely!!
Thanks Lotus, hope the explaination wasn't too much overkill! Just think it helps to have some back up for my position and show I didn't pull it totally out of my diff (rear end!)
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Old 05-03-2013, 07:41 PM   #8095
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny View Post
The std F104 size tires were specified for Vf1 because they are readily available and most racers already had them. I originally designed the car for the F104w equipped with f103 suspension and tires. Here's a pic of the prototype; the front arm fairings are only big enough for the f103 arms.
There is nothing you need to change,you will never make everybody happy. You can just make bodies and let other people figure out what they want to do,personally I think the HPI wheels look bad,tires are ok,for display,but dont have any grip. F104 width looks like a formula 2/formula Jr. car.
The body looks great,I would worry about another body instead of all this tire width talk,its just a waste of time for you.
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Old 05-03-2013, 07:50 PM   #8096
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those cars look Awesome..... nice job guys
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Old 05-03-2013, 08:46 PM   #8097
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aarcobra View Post
I'm not 100% familiar with all of tammy's mix and match of parts, so please clarify. Did not the F103 use a very different diff arrangement where the thrust bearing assembly is mounted against the outer face of the wheel and actually made you partially disassemble the diff to remove the rear diff side wheel?
There are two diff styles Tamiya make, the old 'F103' style with the thrust bearing assembly inside the wheel, and the new 'F104' style with the thrust bearing replaced by putting the thrust load through the standard bearing mounted inside the hub, with the end cap holding the wheel on. The left side non diff end is identical between the two types.

The two types of diff aren't F103 and F104 chassis specific though, the F103 diff is used in all the standard F104 and F104W chassis that come with scale bodies, such as the F60, MP24 and the vintage cars. The F104 style is only used in Tamiyas race spec pro chassis.
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Old 05-03-2013, 08:54 PM   #8098
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Can some one give me the length of the F104 Pro rear axle setup from end point to end point, or the tire mounting face of the diff side to the left hub adapter tire mounting face.
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Last edited by Marty Peterson; 05-03-2013 at 09:11 PM.
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Old 05-03-2013, 09:01 PM   #8099
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Originally Posted by terry.sc View Post
The F103 and F104W rear hubs are the same, and they are the same as the narrow F104. The standard spec F104 uses the same diff as the F103, and the newer F104 Pro diff fits in the F103. The difference in rear width is entirely down to the width of the rear wheels.
Crash and Burn I thought I posted it like that.

Correct! I need to go back and look at it all again. Maybe all cars will need the Pro diff set, and the hub adapters. and maybe not a threaded shaft but the hub adapter to be threaded as in my pan car setup.



please look at full size picture.

F103 104 & W might need the following parts.

Diff joint : 13450182
Diff housing A 13450181
Diff cap: 13450122
Diff spacer: 13455940
more parts maybe needed.

Tamiya - RC F104 Alum Diff Housing Set
Item No.: 54158 24.95 ebay.

as in past posts looking for a way to make this work out for all of us.
http://lee2763.smugmug.com/Other/f/i...%20%281%29.jpg
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Last edited by Marty Peterson; 05-03-2013 at 09:39 PM.
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Old 05-03-2013, 09:20 PM   #8100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bakaguyjean View Post
There is nothing you need to change,you will never make everybody happy. You can just make bodies and let other people figure out what they want to do,personally I think the HPI wheels look bad,tires are ok,for display,but dont have any grip. F104 width looks like a formula 2/formula Jr. car.
The body looks great,I would worry about another body instead of all this tire width talk,its just a waste of time for you.
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