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Old 03-14-2012, 09:16 PM   #4351
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Sorry Terry, but you need to check again... The left car has rear tyres way wider than the 104... that'll be WGT rims then. As you point out, if it's a proto, why go to the bother of making specific axles when you have Pan axles sitting on the shelf...
Terry`s right those are F103 wheels,F1 RC runs three classes. Two use spec F103 size tires and wheel and the other is the Scale class that runs spec F104 wheels.
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Old 03-14-2012, 09:49 PM   #4352
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I know that I'm wasting my time here, but Terry, once again you do not get what I was getting at with regards to 1/12 racing. I don't know about the UK and Europe, but here in America, 1/12 pan car racing has ALWAYS been direct drive, solid rear axle cars with extremely aerodynamic bodies. These cars were never intended to resemble full scale 1:1 cars. The 1/12 cars you mentioned in your previous post were either never sold over here, or would not have raced in organized 1/12 pan car racing. There is no way you can compare 1/12 pan cars with F1 cars; and just because myself and the MAJORITY prefer the F1 cars be scale in appearance, doesn't mean that we think that 1/12 pan cars should follow suit! As I previously posted, 1/12 pan cars are fine as they are. Different class of car, different set of rules! There are 1/12 independent suspension on-road cars such as the ones from ABC Hobby and Atomic that are raced over here, and they are basically 1/12 touring cars; but they are their own seperate class of car and racing. They never do, and are not intended to race against the 1/12 solid axle pan cars!

Also, you will find that it is indeed the majority, at least here in America, that prefer F1 cars to be as close to scale as possible. Others have posted that what drew them to F1 and rc is they watched the real thing either on tv or in person, and they wanted to race an F1 rc car that looked like their favorite car/team. That is still what draws most in America to F1; they want to race an rc car that looks like the real thing. Over here scale on-road racing is becoming more popular; witness the popularity of the Vintage Trans Am class which requires the cars to look as scale realistic as possible!

I think you speak based on what you find to be popular in the UK, as that is where you are.

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Old 03-14-2012, 09:54 PM   #4353
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Sorry Terry, but you need to check again... The left car has rear tyres way wider than the 104... that'll be WGT rims then. As you point out, if it's a proto, why go to the bother of making specific axles when you have Pan axles sitting on the shelf...

Anyway, this whole arguement would be moot... I've been converted round to the different arguements now, and in the series here in SH, everything runs together. The big difference is we have a spec rubber tyre... and that is the biggest leveler.
The 104's and FGX's it all fits fine, but on 103's etc, the width's are funky on the front and rear, plus you have ride-height restrictions.

I honestly detest foams, I've never enjoyed running them, and find rubber just much simpler... get rid of foam for F1, IMO At the very least, I like the BRCA / UF1 rules, and there seems to be some general consensous (190mm, rubber, 21.5t) which is great... for me that is the F1 class, and the direction it should head.
The wide, foam cars are a hang over from the past... by all means, keep running them to get people introduced to the class, but over time (and it has already happened in UF1) the conversion to that should be encouraged.

I buy the scale arguement, and doing things to defferentiate F1 from the other classes is, IMO, a good thing... stuff like no WGT tyres (do you see SC boys bitching about not running 8th rims?), suspension inside the body (they just look wrong otherwise!) and so on are good moves, as it keeps the class different and in it's on niche. It's F1, not WGT lite... if that annoys some people, so be it.

As for the IRS, personally, I don't care any more... I've had an FGX (with Rabbit conversion), and I was still faster with my F104. Enough of an argument for me! If it brings more people to the class, then thats a good thing
Sage words mate.
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Old 03-14-2012, 10:04 PM   #4354
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Sage words mate.
Doesn't happen too often, but I sometimes string enough together to make sense
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Old 03-14-2012, 10:07 PM   #4355
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I honestly detest foams, I've never enjoyed running them, and find rubber just much simpler... get rid of foam for F1, IMO At the very least, I like the BRCA / UF1 rules, and there seems to be some general consensous (190mm, rubber, 21.5t) which is great... for me that is the F1 class, and the direction it should head.
The wide, foam cars are a hang over from the past... by all means, keep running them to get people introduced to the class, but over time (and it has already happened in UF1) the conversion to that should be encouraged.

I buy the scale arguement, and doing things to defferentiate F1 from the other classes is, IMO, a good thing... stuff like no WGT tyres (do you see SC boys bitching about not running 8th rims?), suspension inside the body (they just look wrong otherwise!) and so on are good moves, as it keeps the class different and in it's own niche. It's F1, not WGT lite... if that annoys some people, so be it.

As for the IRS, personally, I don't care any more... I've had an FGX (with Rabbit conversion), and I was still faster with my F104. Enough of an argument for me! If it brings more people to the class, then thats a good thing
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Old 03-15-2012, 07:09 AM   #4356
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Sorry Terry, but you need to check again... The left car has rear tyres way wider than the 104... that'll be WGT rims then. As you point out, if it's a proto, why go to the bother of making specific axles when you have Pan axles sitting on the shelf...
We are never going to agree over this Ed, but wider tyres doesn't make them WorldGT tyres. As Bakaguyjean has also pointed out, the class they raced in allow F103 tyres and as I run an F103 and F109 I do know what they look like. f103 tyres are only 5mm narrower than WorldGT tyres, but they don't have the low profile that WGT (and F104) tyres have. I just don't like the way people keep on going on about them being illegal when they aren't, it's like complaining that the BRCA retro class are all running on illegal tyres because most of them are using the kit F109 rears.

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I honestly detest foams, I've never enjoyed running them, and find rubber just much simpler... get rid of foam for F1, IMO At the very least, I like the BRCA / UF1 rules, and there seems to be some general consensous (190mm, rubber, 21.5t) which is great... for me that is the F1 class, and the direction it should head.
The wide, foam cars are a hang over from the past... by all means, keep running them to get people introduced to the class, but over time (and it has already happened in UF1) the conversion to that should be encouraged.
You do point out that narrow and rubber is the way you like, but those constantly telling those of us elsewhere around the world running wide cars on foams that what we are doing is wrong and we should all throw away what we currently use and buy a narrow car isn't going to convert us. Being intolerant to the choice others have made isn't going to get them to replace the car they have invested in.

Coming from a 1/12th scale and pan car background I'm happy with foams, I even allow foams on tourers at my club because they are simpler for the non experts to get to grips with as they need no treatment or preparation to run them on our carpet and gets them up to speed quickly and cheaply, which helps keep them coming back. But I would never tell other touring car drivers elsewhere they should all move to foams because that's what we like to run.
We even have a racer that runs an old Corally every so often at my club, after all it's just a fun club meeting and he is never going to take part in the F1 nationals. To me it's one more F1 on the track, not the end of F1 and everyone else has to go out and buy one. No one screams at him that it shouldn't be allowed and he should go out and buy a new car before he can race, the others just ignore his result when comparing lap times.

If we can all agree that there are actually two main classes raced around the world and neither class is going to go away any time soon, then we can move on. Trying to deride anyone and any manufacturer because they aren't running your favourite width and tyres is going to do nothing to increase the popularity of F1.
I would just like the discussion to move on from wide/foam is dead and narrow/rubber is the future, especially when there is only two Tamiyas and the HPI F10 that can run narrow/rubber out of the box, while every other company and even most of Tamiyas new cars are to the 'old' wide foam class.

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As for the IRS, personally, I don't care any more... I've had an FGX (with Rabbit conversion), and I was still faster with my F104. Enough of an argument for me! If it brings more people to the class, then thats a good thing
I agree, don't see anything wrong with allowing the FGX even though we currently don't allow it over here, but then the kit also isn't available in the UK either and the drivers aren't going change a rule specifically to allow one kit not available over here. That might change if the HPI prototype that's been seen goes into production. I would still bet on the solid axle cars beating it and see no reason to not allow them.

Anything that brings people to F1 is great, if your club attracts people because they are running the FGX, or even if a bunch of people want to race the Corally as a group, then they should all be welcomed to F1 as it just increases the interest to F1s in general, not put them down because they have made a different choice to whatever you think we should all be running.
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Old 03-15-2012, 07:09 AM   #4357
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I know that I'm wasting my time here, but Terry, once again you do not get what I was getting at with regards to 1/12 racing. I don't know about the UK and Europe, but here in America, 1/12 pan car racing has ALWAYS been direct drive, solid rear axle cars with extremely aerodynamic bodies.
Your point was that 1/12th always was direct drive only and F1 should be the same, I was pointing out in the early days anything was allowed and it ended up with solid axle because that gave the best performance, not because they banned independent suspension. By a strange quirk here in the UK both 4wd and independent suspension is still allowed in 1/12th scale because there has been no need to ban them. If the fastest 1/12ths we have ever had have all been solid axle then I can't see any reason to ban the FGX in F1s as it isn't going to beat all the other F1s.

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Also, you will find that it is indeed the majority, at least here in America, that prefer F1 cars to be as close to scale as possible. Others have posted that what drew them to F1 and rc is they watched the real thing either on tv or in person, and they wanted to race an F1 rc car that looked like their favorite car/team. That is still what draws most in America to F1; they want to race an rc car that looks like the real thing. Over here scale on-road racing is becoming more popular; witness the popularity of the Vintage Trans Am class which requires the cars to look as scale realistic as possible!
We love scale over here as well and I certainly hate the modern vomit paint style that's all over touring cars - I remember when we used to actually paint replicas of the real touring cars and they looked so much better than they do now.
F1s look their best when they look like the real thing and most people will either paint something that looks scale, or those without the skills something that looks like it could be a real paint scheme. I don't think anyone can argue that we don't want the overdone rubbish that passes for paint schemes on tourers and buggies. But we don't have the numbers to reject racers from running their cars because they want to decorate them non scale, you can never expect to expand numbers by making drivers either paint or even worse force them to buy painted scale replicas before allowing them to race, especially if by sticking to modern cars you limit the choice of F1 paint schemes to just the last 3 years of racing as has been suggested in the past.

It just annoys me when I'm told on here that my F103 Ferrari 312 isn't scale because it's 200mm wide with wide rears, or the latest Tamiya McLaren MP4-5 kits, when they are actually more scale at 200mm wide than if they had narrow wheels mounted on them.

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I think you speak based on what you find to be popular in the UK, as that is where you are.
Whatever anyone's opinion is, rubber is never going to take off in the UK in the short term. Wide F103 size foam tyres are easy to get hold of here and most major race series and most F1s at clubs race indoors on carpet, even the F1 nationals are a running with the WorldGT nationals. For F104 foams or any rubbers you are looking at buying from abroad or sticking with the Tamiya kit tyres only available to order, so definitely isn't encouraging the narrow rubber class here. F1 took off again over here due to the plentiful supply of the 3Racing f109, which is why the wide cars are popular. No doubt if the F109 was a narrow car the narrow class would be more popular.
The US is different to here, better access to Tamiyas cars and parts and better access to F104 tyres with no real support for other cars means narrow is definitely the way to go over there.

Unless all the manufacturers of cars and tyres get together and decide which rules to stick with we will always have two different styles of F1 racing. I don't have a problem with that, I just wish everyone would accept it as well.
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Old 03-15-2012, 07:10 AM   #4358
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BTW, has anyone noticed the 1:1 scale cars are racing this weekend?
I'm really curious about this year: Has McLaren caught Red Bull, will Jenson's steady hand outshow Hamilton again, are the Ferarris really THAT bad, and is the Lotus as good as a lot of people hope (or is it just Kimi making it look good) ?
No one knows right now, even the top teams don't know especially as Red Bull and McLaren didn't show their hand at the pre-season tests and both only introduced their proper 2012 cars at the last two days of the test. Red Bull introduced a new exhaust system and covered it with umbrellas whenever they pitted it, got lots of attention and meant very few noticed McLaren had replaced most of their car with new updates making it look even better. Ferrari was off the pace at the tests, their biggest problem was tyre degradation, but then McLaren was out of it this time last year but was challenging for wins as soon as the racing started. Everyones opinion though seems to suggest that it should be a lot closer than last year.

The MP4-27 has to be a winner though, it just looks so beautiful especially alongside all the ugly platypus noses.
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Old 03-15-2012, 07:54 AM   #4359
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[QUOTE=terry.sc;10469888]Your point was that 1/12th always was direct drive only and F1 should be the same,

Terry, It was NOT my point that F1 should be direct drive solid axle like 1/12!!
My point was that they are two entirely different types of cars/classes. Personally I think that F1 cars like the FGX are the way to go, as they are even more realistic than the solid axle cars like the F104, etc. However, for now at least, I think both types should be allowed to race together. There is a rumor that both Tamiya and HPI are working on their own versions of the FGX, so that may yet change things in the future.



Quote:It just annoys me when I'm told on here that my F103 Ferrari 312 isn't scale because it's 200mm wide with wide rears, or the latest Tamiya McLaren MP4-5 kits, when they are actually more scale at 200mm wide than if they had narrow wheels mounted on them.

Personally, I love those cars too, especially the JPS Lotus 79 and the Tyrrell P34 six-wheeler. Ideally, they should run in their own "vintage F1/nostalgia" class; but the problem there might be in having enough participants.
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Old 03-15-2012, 07:58 AM   #4360
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Terry, one thing you and I are in complete agreement is, that we hope that the McLaren MP4-27 beats the Red Bull and everyone else, if for no other reason than to prove that the cars don't need those god-awful ugly platypus noses!!! The McLaren is by far the best looking car this year!!
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Old 03-15-2012, 07:58 AM   #4361
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No one knows right now, even the top teams don't know especially as Red Bull and McLaren didn't show their hand at the pre-season tests and both only introduced their proper 2012 cars at the last two days of the test. Red Bull introduced a new exhaust system and covered it with umbrellas whenever they pitted it, got lots of attention and meant very few noticed McLaren had replaced most of their car with new updates making it look even better. Ferrari was off the pace at the tests, their biggest problem was tyre degradation, but then McLaren was out of it this time last year but was challenging for wins as soon as the racing started. Everyones opinion though seems to suggest that it should be a lot closer than last year.

The MP4-27 has to be a winner though, it just looks so beautiful especially alongside all the ugly platypus noses.
I really hope McLaren wins the first race so everybody re thinks the front suspension/nose.
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Old 03-15-2012, 08:30 AM   #4362
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I really hope McLaren wins the first race so everybody re thinks the front suspension/nose.
I couldn't agree with you more Those front ends are butt ugly... Even though I'm a Vettel fan, if it takes him loosing a few races at the beginning of the season to change those noses, I'm all for that...
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Old 03-15-2012, 11:46 AM   #4363
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*I see the discussion has evolved since I last posted, but since you quoted me directly, I'll respond to that:

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Remember, this is just one championship in one country and has nothing to do with the racing rules anywhere else. As far as I know the rest of the world, and even other championships in the US, don't allow the FGX to race, it certainly isn't legal in the UK.
Yeah, I move around between Asia, Europe and the US for work. I was referring to the UF1 series specifically. I'm quite aware that rules are different in different parts of the world. Funny, your writing reminds me a lot of my UK colleagues. BTW, that is neither an insult nor a compliment.

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Tamiya made the F201 for their main market of car park bashers, not the racers, to try and sell more of them. It was never designed as a more advanced racer. After all, in a race between the F210 and an F104 my money would be on the F104, so that to me means the F104 is the more advanced design while the F201 is overcomplicated.

The rwd F1s were hard or even impossible to drive for a novice just bashing in a car park on kit foams. By making the F201 4wd it made the car drivable on unprepared tarmac. The F201 was more a scale model that was radio controlled rather than an all out racer, as you can tell by the lack of useful features such as a range of gear ratios for a start.

Considering everyone racing F1s in Japan were still running pan car F1s then Tamiya had the option of building something that could actually race with the other F1s, or they could have built an independent suspension car for the bashers. I would presume the F201 wasn't the success they hoped it was so the best option is to come up with a viable race chassis, the F104.
Up to the 414x; Tamiya used to NEVER made purpose built racing cars. Sure, they had TRF and Pro versions of kits, but they traditionally liked to send out a basic kit, then flood the market with "Hopup" options.

You are correct, the F201 seemed to be aimed at the "basher" crowd. Like the Mini chassis though, people still tried to race them as if they were some sort of high performance machine. Yes, that's a little jab at the Mini guys...

IMHO, The F201 was a pig plain and simple. Sure, you could put a little lipstick (hopups) on it, but it was still, well, a pig. To me, it was over-engineered, too complicated, and it should have been 2wd. I think it was produced to fleece the Tamiya faithful of their $.

I see the FGX in the same way, it requires a lot of hopups, and the design seems like it is more complicated then it should be. Sure the price is low, but a new chassis and a few aluminum bits later, and your in already $250+ invested into the car, not including radio gear. I get it, there is a few of you that like the thing, and that's fine. However, the fact that it was made 190 and not 180 or 200 really bugs me, and does not help the F1 Class in grow, it makes it more confusing as to what the rules should be.
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Old 03-15-2012, 12:00 PM   #4364
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Where is that dead horse? I want to beat it some more.
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Old 03-15-2012, 12:31 PM   #4365
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Where is that dead horse? I want to beat it some more.


and you remind me a lot of my US co-workers.
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