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Old 03-13-2012, 11:04 PM   #4321
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Originally Posted by ixlr8nz View Post
The FGX is basically a touring car with an F1 body. Do we really want to be encouraging people to race something with many more moving parts than there needs to be. The more moving parts there are on a car, the more wear you get, the more it costs, and of course the faster it can go for a lap once people get the handling sorted out....

I think its really funny how people on here are not thinking about the future of F1, talking about how its about the same speed as the current crop of direct drive F1's so should be allowed to race. Imagine in 6 months or a year when everyone has bought even more hop up parts for it, and spent a lot more time testing set ups.


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this sounds very afraid for the fgx. please give a try to find the advantage is of very small.dont be afraid of new style.out of f109,f103,2 f104,x1,f1r fgx and a self made example,none show any clear advantage. i am to not understand the touring car reference,they are four wheel drive or not?
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Old 03-13-2012, 11:21 PM   #4322
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The FGX is one car. It's a cheap car, that seems to require a lot of aftermarket help to be competitive. They do look very cool.

The FGX is not really the problem. If an Xray, Serpent, etc. decide to drop the money on developing a proper pro level chassis, now the cost of entry is guaranteed to be $400. Would it be faster? Possibly, but now it adds a bunch of complication to the class. Nobody seems to be breaking down hobby shop doors for $500 TC chassis currently.

You can buy a CRC WGT car for around $250, and that is top level equipment. Would an IRS WGT be any benefit to the class besides being more complicated and expensive?
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Old 03-14-2012, 02:27 AM   #4323
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Originally Posted by InspGadgt View Post
They had a reasonably scale suspension but the 1/10 pan car tires are no where near scale for a F1. The front to rear width ratios and taller rim with a lower profile tire not only looked wrong but gave them an advantage over other F1 cars. Both the older Corally and the older HPI F1 had that problem.
As far as scale is concerned, neither are the Tamiya-size foams. Nor are any of the cars really true to scale, when all is said and done. Looking at the late 80s, early 90s real cars, the Corally might actually be the closest to scale, dimension wise. Those cars were actually over 2 meters wide...

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Originally Posted by terry.sc View Post
The old Corally and HPI Super F1 weren't faster because of the suspension design, that's a bit of a smokescreen considering we have F1 chassis that are much more advanced than those cars. The advantage was entirely down to the bigger range of wide, low profile tyres they could run.
On the rear end, I would agree, on the front end your milage may vary. The Mk1 Corally front had dampening, which I haven't seen since.

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Originally Posted by terry.sc View Post
If someone is upset about "the demise of the class" due to cars designed around performance rather than scale looks, well that counts out most of the cars and conversions on the market already. If it ever does come down to needing one particular car to keep up with the fast guys the cost of keeping up with everyone would decide whether the class dies or flourishes. On that basis I would be more worried about the Serpent F110 than whatever car TOP comes out with.
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Originally Posted by Team Lotus View Post
F1 rc racing should be, first and foremost, about "scale racing"!
I disagree. So now what?

I think Formula1 should be, first and foremost, about racing an open wheeled, pan car.
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Old 03-14-2012, 02:35 AM   #4324
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Originally Posted by ijdod View Post
As far as scale is concerned, neither are the Tamiya-size foams. Nor are any of the cars really true to scale, when all is said and done. Looking at the late 80s, early 90s real cars, the Corally might actually be the closest to scale, dimension wise. Those cars were actually over 2 meters wide...
No one is talking about true to scale but more the scale appearance or decent proportions. Dimension wise it may be closer to scale in width but the rim diameter and sidewall look nothing even close to scale in appearance. You also don't take into account that the F1 class has already been down this road before and it did nothing but fracture the class and weaken it considerably. Not learning from those mistakes in the past is only going to repeat the same failure.
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Old 03-14-2012, 05:06 AM   #4325
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This is the one you need, but the 2 places I know to get it are out.
thanks for the info it is greatly appreciated
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Old 03-14-2012, 06:11 AM   #4326
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I'm mixed on the idea of serpent xray etc making a f1. On one hand I think it would bring great exposure to the f1 class. On the other it will be expensive.Then I think that no one is complaining about the f104xi at $250-$300 less body. Honestly it costs money to go fast in any class.I don't think a high end car would hurt the class just change the game a little. The only way I see it being a big problem is if these new chassis are seconds faster and not a couple tenths. After all isn't that the goal of manufacturers? To make a faster chassis? If not then we would all have f101 chassis because they were "good enough"
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Old 03-14-2012, 07:08 AM   #4327
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First of all Terry, I/12 scale on-road should NOT go with independent suspension; it has ALWAYS been a solid axle car, ALWAYS!!
I was pointing out that if F1 should go independent rear, should 1/12th go as well, and pointing out that it already had years ago when we had less grip and even then they died a swift death when the pan cars still beat them.
Actually, 1/12th scale did go independent suspension and also 4wd. Examples are the AYK Cyclone, AYK Quattro, ABC Super Hero and Hirobo Ashura

So you complain that 1/12th should be and will always be solid axle, while supporting the use of independent suspension in F1. Strangely enough, here in the UK the BRCA rules still allow independent suspension and 4WD in 1/12th scale if you can squeeze it under a legal bodyshell. I have actually though about trying to build one from an Xpress MRR2 just to see what reaction it would get.

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F1 rc racing should be, first and foremost, about "scale racing"! This is a class that promotes the cars AND the racing to be as much like the real thing as is possible. And cars such as the FGX and the others that are sure to follow in it's footsteps are true to that principle; whereas cars like the "current" Corally and the prototype Top are not!! If they can be modified to use a "proper" F1 style front suspension and use "proper" F1 wheels and tires, instead of 1/12 or 1/10 pan car wheels and tires, and be to scale measurements, then maybe they would be considered legal. I don't see why Corally and Top are producing those cars, other than to appeal to the "to heck with scale appearance, I want all-out performance" set, who if they get their way will ruin F1 for everyone.
As I and the site the original pictures came from have said, the TOP are development prototypes and not the production kits, and this complaining about a non existent kit that might never make production is getting silly. Pictures of the TOP look to be running F1 size wheels to me, certainly they are the same size as the wheels on my F1 and look the same size as the F104 in this picture.

Or are you just assuming they are using WorldGT size tyres because the Corally uses them?

All they have done is get them up and running with a front end they already make, while others have also pointed out it is designed to fit the F103 front end on it as well. This means to me and should to most that there is no point ranting about the front end, after all if you wanted to develop a car it makes sense to me to start with what you already know using parts you already have, then once you have developed the design make more production ready development parts, then the final mouldings.

If your problem is that the rear wheels are F103 width instead of the narrower F104 size then that has nothing to do with TOP and everything to with your local rules. You have decided to run 180mm, and that is your choice. The rest of the world wants to run to 200mm rules and no matter how much you complain 200mm cars are not going to disappear as the majority of racers worldwide want to run them, whether you like it or not and no matter how much you complain about it every manufacturer is going to make race cars to the rules the majority of people race to. Certainly if we in the UK had decided that the only cars allowed were the 180mm cars, then F1 would be dead.

You might as well embrace the thought that not every F1 racer wants to run a scale model, it's about 25 years since F1s were scale models with radio control and people would prefer something that looks like an F1 that's raceable over an accurate scale F1. Complaining that every car out there apart from the F104 isn't scale width isn't going to encourage every manufacturer to suddenly make their cars 200mm narrower.

Last edited by terry.sc; 03-14-2012 at 07:43 AM.
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Old 03-14-2012, 07:08 AM   #4328
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Why are there always some who get on this thread and seek to put down the MAJORITY of the F1 fans who wish to see F1 kept as a "scale" racing class? They seem to enjoy referring to us as "anal" or "extreme" or whatever else.
If you put it up to a vote, I think you would find the MAJORITY want to race F1 style cars and aren't anal about the car having to be 180mm wide and with an accurate f1 paint scheme on it.

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Why do they insist on trying to get the rules bent so as to allow WGT pan cars that are thinly disguised as F1 cars? Also, they seem to want to promote allowing 1/12 or 1/10 WGT pan car wheels and tires on F1 cars; again, against the rules, as they are not even close to scale. F1 is a unique "niche" class, and should stay as such!! That is what draws people to it!!
You have a real contradiction there.
None of us are interested in running WorldGT size wheels and tyres, that argument is dead so there is no point bringing it up regularly as it isn't going to happen. There is only one car that uses WorldGT size wheels, and that comes from a country where they are still running 235mm pan cars so there is a small market for it there and it only cost Corally the time to reprogram the CNC chassis cutting machine. It was never designed to race in the F1 class we all use. Complaining that Corally makes a car that isn't race legal anywhere else in the world won't make it go away, and no one else is bringing out a car that runs WGT wheels.

The line that gets me is "WGT pan cars that are thinly disguised as F1 cars". Now to me this describes exactly the Exotek F1R. That is basically Associated RC10R5 suspension modified to fit F1 rules, the same way the Serpent F110 is based on their S100 and all the other link chassis which have identical rear ends to WorldGT cars.
I would accept any argument about running converted WGT cars if they actually existed, but so far there is no production F1 car that doesn't run an F1 style front end.
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Old 03-14-2012, 07:30 AM   #4329
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TC chassis are still the same? Definitely not. Chassis design, flex characteristics, suspension geometry etc etc have all advanced. Your statement is like saying that there is no difference between a 2011 mustang and a 1993 mustang. It has four wheels and suspension so it hasn't changed much.
No, my statement was pointing out the complaint was that there was no development in F1, just compare the original F104 of only 3 years ago with the TRF F111, Serpent F110 or Exotek F1R.

Now compare the latest touring cars to the TRF415 from 2003. Layout was tweaked due to the lower weight of the lipo pack, but they run the same electrics layout and same suspension design with the links moved about a bit. Chassis design is the same, top decks have moved down and then moved back up again, but to anyone who considers there is no development in F1 they must see no difference in tourers either. I do love how years ago the chassis were quite flexible, so they made them stiffer and stiffer, and now they are going back to more flexible, where they started from.
The only place touring cars have had any real development, rather than small tweaks to what they already have, has been in the introduction of oil filled gear diffs, but then consider the previous drivetrain innovation was spools about 8 years ago.

No one believes that the small tweaks on touring cars don't make them faster, but the same can be said for the much more extensive developments on F1s.
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Old 03-14-2012, 07:30 AM   #4330
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I personally could care less who runs what car or has what aftermarket part. As long as it fits within a certain set of max dimensions, has the required tires, motor, and battery, bring them all on. That's all the UF1 and ROAR rules state anyways with the exception of the new kid FGX not technically fitting in. Kit stock, aftermarket, home built, whatever. Run them. The whole point of a stock class or a modified class is motor (power) restriction. That's it. Some people have no clue what the term stock means and it has absolutely nothing to do with a chassis. It never has since day 1 in r/c. It only governs power. A spec class limits things hugely and has far more rules. Just buying the latest greatest high tech kit out there doesn't mean you'll do any better than you would with any other car if you can't tune it and drive it.

Let's see the F103's, F104's, F109's, FGX's, Exotec conversions etc all out there at the same time. Let's face it, no matter what anyone does, there are always going to be a few people that are near impossible to beat. There are going to be people that never win. There are going to be people that are competitive that are only happy when they win. There are people that only want to have fun and don't need to win to do it. There are people who will spend as little as possible. There are people who will spend as much as possible to give themselves an advantage. There are people that constantly talk smack and there will be those who always make excuses if they don't win. Restrict them all to rubber tires, 21.5 motors (or whatever your rules limit to) and then bring it all on!
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Old 03-14-2012, 07:32 AM   #4331
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On the rear end, I would agree, on the front end your milage may vary. The Mk1 Corally front had dampening, which I haven't seen since.
All F1s can have front end dampening, it depends on what you lubricate the kingpins with and is a pretty standard setup adjustment. It certainly gives better damping than the centre damper on my old Corally F1.

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I think Formula1 should be, first and foremost, about racing an open wheeled, pan car.
+1
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Old 03-14-2012, 07:43 AM   #4332
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I think the ‘big’ manufactures would participate in F1 if the class became more popular; it is definitely growing but not large enough to sink big budgets into it yet. The other main reason I think that is keeping out the big guys is the lack of a fixed set of rules. What is and isn’t going to be ‘allowed’ to race nationally/internationally (that’s where the exposure is) would hurt one brand over another and nobody wants to be ‘that illegal car’.

To counter that point though the whole SCT truck craze brought in the manufactures because of the popularity and they all helped develop the rules for the class.

Time will tell which happens first in the F1 world; I would race a Losi in a heart beat!
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Old 03-14-2012, 08:14 AM   #4333
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I think the ‘big’ manufactures would participate in F1 if the class became more popular; it is definitely growing but not large enough to sink big budgets into it yet. The other main reason I think that is keeping out the big guys is the lack of a fixed set of rules. What is and isn’t going to be ‘allowed’ to race nationally/internationally (that’s where the exposure is) would hurt one brand over another and nobody wants to be ‘that illegal car’.
+1

Until we have international rules there will always be this debate over what cars should and shouldn't be allowed. F1 has always been big in Japan which is why they have many car and hop up manufacturers over there, in fact there are a lot more F1 manufacturers than WorldGT already.

WorldGT came about because a group of people made a set of rules that were then adopted by everyone worldwide, which then led to manufacturers making cars to comply with the new rules.
F1 got big again in the US thanks to the F104 being available, F1 got big here in the UK thanks to the F109 being available at a cheap price. Both times rules were then created based on what people were already running, so they do vary widely between countries and even race series. Unifying the F1 rules would mean manufacturers can guarantee their cars were race legal everywhere.

Although whether we can unify the rules worldwide is going to be interesting. Most places run 200mm rules based around the F103, which allows every F1 to be run and which every manufacturer builds 200mm cars that are legal for that class already. There are those who prefer the 180mm cars who feel they are at a disadvantage racing against the 200mm cars so will want a separate class for them, so we now have two classes.
Then we now have the discussion over whether they should stick to solid axle or not, which if the FGX hadn't been released we would never be discussing it. It's whether they have a separate class for the FGX, allow them with the others or ban them entirely.

It depends on what will happen with independent suspension in the future. Lets look at touring car for an example. In the early days they were 190mm and 200mm wide, and had slipper clutches and two speed gearboxes. There was not much performance difference between them, but 200mm cars were banned as most were built to 190mm, and the slippers and gearboxes were banned to cut down on all the manufacturers having to develop them to keep up in the future, even though there was no advantage to them at the time.
I do think there is a niche for cars like the FGX, while being a pan car fan myself I can see why others like them and they are likely to attract touring car racers to F1 with the suspension being familiar to them, and the more F1 fans we have the bigger the class will be no matter what F1 they run.
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Old 03-14-2012, 09:22 AM   #4334
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The FGX is one car. It's a cheap car, that seems to require a lot of aftermarket help to be competitive. They do look very cool.

The FGX is not really the problem. If an Xray, Serpent, etc. decide to drop the money on developing a proper pro level chassis, now the cost of entry is guaranteed to be $400. Would it be faster? Possibly, but now it adds a bunch of complication to the class. Nobody seems to be breaking down hobby shop doors for $500 TC chassis currently.

You can buy a CRC WGT car for around $250, and that is top level equipment. Would an IRS WGT be any benefit to the class besides being more complicated and expensive?
The FGX doesn't require a lot of help. Front springs, rear springs and the right tires and you're racing. The aftermarket chassis helps with durability and have only been on the market for a couple weeks. For a car that just came out, it sure is drawing a lot of attention and support, along with that a couple of detractors. It will be a very good outdoor paved surface car.

As far as a Pan F1 class with Pro 10 tires, I have one. 17.5 2cell 200mm. I call it "Stupid" because it is stupid fast and stupid expensive: RC Indycars conversion kit, IRS carbon rear axle diff and hubs, Corally body and BSR tires Tamiya C12 front wing and TRG Advance rear wing. If there is a place for it, it is in an Unlimited or Mod F1 class.

Stupid next to a stock F103RM. The rim diameter differences are clearly visible. The Pro10 tires have almost no sidewall flex.


Pictured with the new upper links and servo mount that fit Under the body. I almost went for the HPI rear axle and diff set and front arms and axles to run rubber tires.
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Old 03-14-2012, 09:24 AM   #4335
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This is the one you need, but the 2 places I know to get it are out.
I have those sheets minus the McLaren set.
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