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Old 03-13-2012, 06:23 PM   #4306
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Direct drive or pan car only?

Hey what's this advancement in technology thing all about? I love my rotary dial phone and my three on the tree transmission shifter.

Seriously if you want f1 to grow you have to allow for new and different technologies. One day we will all look back talking about all of the direct drive cars we used to have.
So should 1/12th scale go independent as well? Oh, they already did that in the 80s and that ended up being a dead end.

There has already been an awful lot of development in F1s recently, just compare the TRG F111, Tech Racing F125, Exotek F1R and Roche Rapide with the F103 and F104. As the FGX has so far proven, independent suspension doesn't make a car that's suddenly faster than everything else. The only way independent suspension will have an advantage is if the likes of Xray develops a car and then you are looking at touring car size running costs which none of the F1 racers want.

If don't like solid rear axle and you want full independent suspension there's already a class for them, it's called touring cars. Strangely enough due to the 'advancement in technology' in tourers the latest cars are very much the same as they were 10 years ago.
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Old 03-13-2012, 06:40 PM   #4307
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If that's the case, why didn't Tamiya make a F202? Why return to direct drive pan car if the f201 was an advancement in technology? They could have easily gotten rid of the 4wd, and made the F20_ chassis into a 2wd, front and rear pushrod suspended vehicle.
Tamiya made the F201 for their main market of car park bashers, not the racers, to try and sell more of them. It was never designed as a more advanced racer. After all, in a race between the F210 and an F104 my money would be on the F104, so that to me means the F104 is the more advanced design while the F201 is overcomplicated.

The rwd F1s were hard or even impossible to drive for a novice just bashing in a car park on kit foams. By making the F201 4wd it made the car drivable on unprepared tarmac. The F201 was more a scale model that was radio controlled rather than an all out racer, as you can tell by the lack of useful features such as a range of gear ratios for a start.

Considering everyone racing F1s in Japan were still running pan car F1s then Tamiya had the option of building something that could actually race with the other F1s, or they could have built an independent suspension car for the bashers. I would presume the F201 wasn't the success they hoped it was so the best option is to come up with a viable race chassis, the F104.
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Old 03-13-2012, 07:15 PM   #4308
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The reason the F201 never really caught on was not because it was overly complex or independent suspension...it was because it was 4wd and the design was poorly executed. F1 purists didn't like it because it was 4wd...everyone else didn't like it because the design had so many flaws in it you practically had to build the car out of hop up parts to get something decent...and by then you've put $700+ into it. The complex chassis and gear box moldings made the car a real pain in the butt to put electronics in and even worse to do maintenance on. If they had gone with a design that was 2wd, used flat FRP chassis plates and solid bulkheads (plastic or aluminum) like 3Racing has done then the car might still be popular today.

As for being made for bashers...well really almost all of their F1 cars have been that way except for the TRF editions. Tamiya had been doing pan car style F1 cars long before the first 4wd cars were released...they just continued making them that way for quite some time.
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Old 03-13-2012, 07:28 PM   #4309
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Hello all, when I made this comment I really meant that way back when we first started running f1 in the late 80's early 90's the corrally car was far superior to the tamiya's and did not look scale at all and with the current Top racing f1 it still holds true, the car just does not look scale in any way shape or form, the suspension is just of off a 1/12th scale car and the wheels and tires are not to any type of realistic scale. I don't have any objection to other companies entering the f1 game, but in my opinion they should stick to the appearance formula that tamiya has. As far as the attitude of just race, thats fine and dandy but when the out of scale performance only cars start to dominate the class will disapear like it did in the past. I don't understand why there needs to be a change in a class that seems to work fine the way it was designed to work, that is controlable speeds and realistic looks, that is what gets the spectators interested and posibly involved.
The old Corally and HPI Super F1 weren't faster because of the suspension design, that's a bit of a smokescreen considering we have F1 chassis that are much more advanced than those cars. The advantage was entirely down to the bigger range of wide, low profile tyres they could run.

For all the screaming and shouting about the TOP Racing development prototypes that have been hacked together for testing, if they run standard F1 wheels and tyres rather than 1/12th wheels there would be very little if any performance difference between the 1/12th and F1 style front ends, especially as these days some 1/12ths are going towards longer upper wishbones to lower the roll centre, so getting nearer to a F1 front end.

How come the TOP prototypes are suddenly "not scale in any way shape or form" when they have a correct shape F1 body, standard F1 wings, and F1 size tyres. The only part not scale is the front suspension although at present that only makes it illegal in the UK, there is nothing to stop anyone racing it in its current form anywhere else unless other countries add the rule themselves.
Considering the TOP chassis can already fit an f103 front end there is a good chance the plan is to develop an F1 style front suspension for it when it actually turns into a proper kit.

I will join anyone moaning about the 1/12th front end not looking like an F1, but I am amazed at those shouting that somehow a 1/12th front end makes the cars so much faster than an F1 front end. As for "out of scale performance only cars", no one says anything about the various pretty expensive performance only carbon chassied/link rear end cars already available just because they fit an F1 front end on them. If someone is upset about "the demise of the class" due to cars designed around performance rather than scale looks, well that counts out most of the cars and conversions on the market already. If it ever does come down to needing one particular car to keep up with the fast guys the cost of keeping up with everyone would decide whether the class dies or flourishes. On that basis I would be more worried about the Serpent F110 than whatever car TOP comes out with.

Last edited by terry.sc; 03-13-2012 at 07:49 PM.
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Old 03-13-2012, 07:46 PM   #4310
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Has anyone tried foams from R/C4Less? Any opinions would be nice.
Anyone? Bueller?
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Old 03-13-2012, 08:07 PM   #4311
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I have run rc4less foams on my WorldGT, they were pretty good and a bargain compared to the price of other manufacturers tyres. I am certainly very happy with them and several local club members run them.

I did look at their F1 tyres, but as I usually run 25-30 shore rears with 32-35 shore fronts and while they have soft enough rears I think all their fronts are too hard compared to what I normally use so haven't tried them.
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Old 03-13-2012, 08:19 PM   #4312
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I don't see too much wrong with running the wgt wheels on an f1. No different to people putting f103/4/9 foams on their f1 and truing them right down!
Perhaps if people are that anal about tyre scale there should be an equation that says that on a real f1 the tyre diameter to rim size is "x" so in f1 rc racing your foams must be such and such a size?

The fgx is definitely the most realistic looking f1 rc car easily. Seeing the irs from the back with the shell on and with the shell of seals it. I guess the people that disagree are just stuck in their ways or can't afford one?
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Old 03-13-2012, 08:27 PM   #4313
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I don't see too much wrong with running the wgt wheels on an f1. No different to people putting f103/4/9 foams on their f1 and truing them right down!
Perhaps if people are that anal about tyre scale there should be an equation that says that on a real f1 the tyre diameter to rim size is "x" so in f1 rc racing your foams must be such and such a size?

The fgx is definitely the most realistic looking f1 rc car easily. Seeing the irs from the back with the shell on and with the shell of seals it. I guess the people that disagree are just stuck in their ways or can't afford one?
I enjoyed the sarcasm. I agree with the foam truing to well beyond what looks scale shouldn't be allowed. There should be a minimum diameter enforced. I think that's why rubber tyres are catching on so well here in the US and China. It makes inspection that much easier.
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Old 03-13-2012, 08:29 PM   #4314
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First of all Terry, I/12 scale on-road should NOT go with independent suspension; it has ALWAYS been a solid axle car, ALWAYS!! Plus, it was never meant to be a "scale" class anyways!! They were never meant to resemble real cars! It was, and is, the epitome of solid axle pan car racing. It is intended for those who want THE fastest carpet car PERIOD!! Those who race 1/12 don't expect their cars to look like anything in 1:1 scale; they just want the ultimate performance that 1/12 carpet racing provides. They are a lot of fun to race and they definitely have their place. But they should NOT be compared to F1. That is apples to oranges, nothing alike, nor should they be!

F1 rc racing should be, first and foremost, about "scale racing"! This is a class that promotes the cars AND the racing to be as much like the real thing as is possible. And cars such as the FGX and the others that are sure to follow in it's footsteps are true to that principle; whereas cars like the "current" Corally and the prototype Top are not!! If they can be modified to use a "proper" F1 style front suspension and use "proper" F1 wheels and tires, instead of 1/12 or 1/10 pan car wheels and tires, and be to scale measurements, then maybe they would be considered legal. I don't see why Corally and Top are producing those cars, other than to appeal to the "to heck with scale appearance, I want all-out performance" set, who if they get their way will ruin F1 for everyone.

Also, on carpet so far, the FGX is competitive with the F104 and the F1R, and the F109 etc. but has shown no advantage over those cars. On asphalt however, the FGX may prove to have an advantage. One thing all these cars have in common though is that they all look like "real" F1 cars, unlike the WGT F1 pan cars from Corally and Top. I hope Top comes to their senses and changes the current design of their prototype to fit within the proper F1 paramaters.
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Old 03-13-2012, 08:32 PM   #4315
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So should 1/12th scale go independent as well? Oh, they already did that in the 80s and that ended up being a dead end.

There has already been an awful lot of development in F1s recently, just compare the TRG F111, Tech Racing F125, Exotek F1R and Roche Rapide with the F103 and F104. As the FGX has so far proven, independent suspension doesn't make a car that's suddenly faster than everything else. The only way independent suspension will have an advantage is if the likes of Xray develops a car and then you are looking at touring car size running costs which none of the F1 racers want.

If don't like solid rear axle and you want full independent suspension there's already a class for them, it's called touring cars. Strangely enough due to the 'advancement in technology' in tourers the latest cars are very much the same as they were 10 years ago.
+1 here
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Old 03-13-2012, 09:29 PM   #4316
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Why are there always some who get on this thread and seek to put down the MAJORITY of the F1 fans who wish to see F1 kept as a "scale" racing class? They seem to enjoy referring to us as "anal" or "extreme" or whatever else.

Why do they insist on trying to get the rules bent so as to allow WGT pan cars that are thinly disguised as F1 cars? Also, they seem to want to promote allowing 1/12 or 1/10 WGT pan car wheels and tires on F1 cars; again, against the rules, as they are not even close to scale. F1 is a unique "niche" class, and should stay as such!! That is what draws people to it!!

Those who are guilty of this should go visit the threads for WGT racing or 1/12 pan car racing; that is obviously the type of racing they prefer. Stop trying to screw up the F1 class by trying to turn them into WGT cars with a psuedo F1 body, and pass that off as an F1 car!!
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Old 03-13-2012, 09:45 PM   #4317
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can someone point me in the direction of who can sell/supply a decal/sticker sheet for a 1992 nigel mansell williams renault fw14b
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Old 03-13-2012, 09:57 PM   #4318
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can someone point me in the direction of who can sell/supply a decal/sticker sheet for a 1992 nigel mansell williams renault fw14b
This is the one you need, but the 2 places I know to get it are out.
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Old 03-13-2012, 10:06 PM   #4319
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So should 1/12th scale go independent as well? Oh, they already did that in the 80s and that ended up being a dead end.

There has already been an awful lot of development in F1s recently, just compare the TRG F111, Tech Racing F125, Exotek F1R and Roche Rapide with the F103 and F104. As the FGX has so far proven, independent suspension doesn't make a car that's suddenly faster than everything else. The only way independent suspension will have an advantage is if the likes of Xray develops a car and then you are looking at touring car size running costs which none of the F1 racers want.

If don't like solid rear axle and you want full independent suspension there's already a class for them, it's called touring cars. Strangely enough due to the 'advancement in technology' in tourers the latest cars are very much the same as they were 10 years ago.
Thank you for making my point. The independent suspension does not instantly make a superior car. So where's the problem? Most of us are not now and will never national racers. So again where is the problem running the fgx with solid axle cars?

As far as cost how many of us, me included,buy a "cheap" chassis to race a "cheap" class just to dump hundreds into every option part available?

TC chassis are still the same? Definitely not. Chassis design, flex characteristics, suspension geometry etc etc have all advanced. Your statement is like saying that there is no difference between a 2011 mustang and a 1993 mustang. It has four wheels and suspension so it hasn't changed much.

I have a touring chassis and it is a world of difference compared to the fgx or any other f1.

Maybe you would like to return to the nimh 27turn brushed motors too?
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Old 03-13-2012, 10:17 PM   #4320
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First of all Terry, I/12 scale on-road should NOT go with independent suspension; it has ALWAYS been a solid axle car, ALWAYS!! Plus, it was never meant to be a "scale" class anyways!! They were never meant to resemble real cars! It was, and is, the epitome of solid axle pan car racing. It is intended for those who want THE fastest carpet car PERIOD!! Those who race 1/12 don't expect their cars to look like anything in 1:1 scale; they just want the ultimate performance that 1/12 carpet racing provides. They are a lot of fun to race and they definitely have their place. But they should NOT be compared to F1. That is apples to oranges, nothing alike, nor should they be!

F1 rc racing should be, first and foremost, about "scale racing"! This is a class that promotes the cars AND the racing to be as much like the real thing as is possible. And cars such as the FGX and the others that are sure to follow in it's footsteps are true to that principle; whereas cars like the "current" Corally and the prototype Top are not!! If they can be modified to use a "proper" F1 style front suspension and use "proper" F1 wheels and tires, instead of 1/12 or 1/10 pan car wheels and tires, and be to scale measurements, then maybe they would be considered legal. I don't see why Corally and Top are producing those cars, other than to appeal to the "to heck with scale appearance, I want all-out performance" set, who if they get their way will ruin F1 for everyone.

Also, on carpet so far, the FGX is competitive with the F104 and the F1R, and the F109 etc. but has shown no advantage over those cars. On asphalt however, the FGX may prove to have an advantage. One thing all these cars have in common though is that they all look like "real" F1 cars, unlike the WGT F1 pan cars from Corally and Top. I hope Top comes to their senses and changes the current design of their prototype to fit within the proper F1 paramaters.
+1

I have seen this same discussion over and over. What it all comes down to is that SOME not all people against the fgx or any other "different" but still scale car will come out to the track and beat them. Cmon guys. These cars are equals not superiors. Yes they have independent suspension. So what. They also weigh more. No advantage there. They also require lots more tuning. No advantage there either. They also require more attention to stay competitive. Cleaning and relubing are a must with this type of car. I want to tune it, play with it all week, and race it on Saturday. Does that make it a bad car? No makes me personally a better racer and tuner because it is a challenge to make the fgx fast. its about the personal challenge. Not beating everyone else at the track.
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