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Old 02-22-2012, 12:03 PM   #4126
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Originally Posted by ijdod View Post
It's silly how you claim the discussion is silly, yet then go on to claim that 190mm is the way to go. "It's a silly argument because I'm right".
I do not claim 190mm is the way to go, I merely stated ROAR allowed the FGX to race with the F104 and F10 and they have eliminated the F103/F104W this year and that I agree with it.

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Originally Posted by ijdod View Post
The 200mm cars are also true to scale F1. They're also competitive, and available. Your argument lose even more credibility that you seem to be fine with a 190mm car. I'm sorry, but you can't have the cake and eat it too.
You sir are correct; the 200mm cars are scale as well to THEIR period of Formula 1 racing. Since F1 racing has evolved, so too should the RC class. This is generally considered a “true to scale” class, and since the 2012 FIA Formula 1 regulations force the cars to be 1800mm’s or less, that is what I would ‘scale’.

You seem to want to hear exactly what my personal opinion is. If I controlled an F1 class I would make one set of class rules to allow a ‘vintage chassis’ F1 and also a class similar to modern day F1, like the UF1 rules except chassis width would be 180mm. Obviously that is class division but IMO the performance of the chassis are not identical.

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From a (potential) performance perspective I would be far more worried about an IRS car, that I would be about a 20mm wider but otherwise identical car.
I agree an IRS potentially should have an advantage but IMO so to do the wider chassis.

With all this being said; I would obviously run whatever rules either my local track or a national event stipulated. Thank you for trolling and yes I took the bait; I will leave the topic to rest and go finish painting my F1 body set.
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Old 02-22-2012, 12:10 PM   #4127
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Originally Posted by j.d.roost View Post
I agree.
The problem most of us are serious about our racing (fun class or not). When the older cars were brought out of the mothballs to compete against the newer 104..guess what? They were sometimes faster. This ticked off some folks and stirred up this whole debate/rules ect.
To be honest..most of the time at my local it was not the car..it was the wheel man.

A 103 IS scale and still readily available btw.(Tower has them in stock)

I don't think banning scale f1 cars in a class that you can buy "out of the box" at 200mm is a good idea..When a guy shows up with his 109 or 103 and finds out he can't race his f1 car in the f1 class...is where it get confusing for people looking to get into it.
When exceptions are made for the new chassis of the month and then some other cars are still left out...it confuses people even more.

I have personal experence talking with walk in's on a race day who get attracted to the class because "they look cool" and their interest quickly fades away after they walk around and get 25 different opinions from the 103/104 camp I always try and make my point to them that it's more about the driving in this class not the car.

If anything..all we really need is a tire set that is the same across all chassis.
Just don't think shelfing cars is a good idea to get the class up and running as long as they fit within a semi f1 scale appearance. (I think we all agree pan car style f1 is not what we want).

VTA=Everyone is on the same tire..width can be adjusted via hex shims (usually + or -5mm on most cars) any chassis,we know the rest of the rules.

T-car= Most tracks have a "spec" tire everyone must use..width again can be adjusted via.shims on most cars..any chassis,max width 200mm (but I think roar is still 190mm)

1/10 RCGT=Spec. tire everyone must run...open chassis,width can be adjusted for tuning.

1/10 wgt=spec tire everyone must run..open chassis,width can be adjusted for tuning.

1/12= tires (f/r) are all the same width,and diameter (for the most part ) open 1/12 chassis,width can be adjusted for tuning.
These guys have it figured out already.

We all have valid points and our passion for the class sparks up much debate..Good ,bad or indifferent.
All of those classes have a max width rule. And your right most of the time it is the driver and not the car that makes a difference...however to those that are getting beat the perception is that it is because his car has an advantage. It really doesn't matter if that advantage is real or perceived it has the same affect. A good example is back in the F201 days we allowed all kinds of hop ups so long as the overall dimensions of the car didn't change. Then we limited battery and motor to keep things even. Some of us built up these hugely expensive cars because we could and they were cool compared to the stock chassis...Did all of these hop ups really make a difference? Not really...it made it easier to work on the car but that was about it. Handling wise the cars were all still even...if anything the hopped up cars had a disadvantage because they were so much heavier than the stock cars. The guy who won the series trounced everyone with a stock car...yet there was still this perception that in order to be competitive you had to have all these hop ups the rest of us had so we lost a few racers and lost several potential racers because they didn't want to spend $800+ on a F201 rolling chassis. No matter how much I pointed out the winner was racing a stock car and how much heavier the hopped up cars were...the perception stuck and the class had much less growth than it could have had.
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Old 02-22-2012, 04:39 PM   #4128
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Originally Posted by fredswain View Post
Real F1 cars must be no more than 180cm wide. That means their 1/10 scale counterpart, assuming this is in fact truly a "scale" class should also be no wider than 1/10 of that which is 180mm wide. Congrats you guys can only use 1 car!
While I know some people would love to run 2012 cars only, so far they haven't quite made the rules yet. (luckily :P) Anybody want to guess at the proper weight at that scale, now that we're at it? And the proper scale speeds?

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A 205mm width means that in the real world you could have an F1 car that is a foot wider than current. The reality is that in a stock class, at the relatively slow speeds being run, the width difference isn't going to matter all that much. If we were talking about modifieds where people are running 60 mph then you bet the width difference is going to change the game for some.
With modified, I agree the difference will be noticeable, all else being equal. I must admit to having mostly ignored mod, as most people seem to be talking about stock-like motors. Even so, there's more factors. Batteries are a huge factor, tyres can be too. At some point in racing people will look everywhere for a benefit. That could be width, but it could just as easily be that fancy new chassis that runs circles around the rest.

Also, but that's personal, I'm not sure if I'd actually want to run the Tamiya front end suspension at 60mph. A proper pancar setup makes so much more sense under those conditions :P



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Originally Posted by InspGadgt View Post
Oh I agree run them all together for now...that's what we are doing at our track. I'm just making sure everyone understands...once you let the genie out of the bottle you can't put it back in. In other words once you start letting 200mm run with the 190mm and 180mm you won't be able to change that because too many people will have invested in other sizes.
I understand the point you're making, but haven't things already moved past that point by allowing 190mm in with the 180mm cars? What reason is there for the 'sudden' leniency towards the 190mm cars? (how many 190mm cars are there, besides the TGX? There's the WRC car, but that's going to be rare)
--
One of the problems I see with the width discussion is that it's one across generations of cars. Even if you were to ignore the pancars, F1 has been 200mm since forever. Then all of a sudden someone (I'm looking at you, Tamiya ) decided that 180mm was the best thing since sliced bread, and all of a sudden you're potentially not allowed to play any more. That is a bit what it feels like from the 200mm(+ ) side of things. "wider cars should be retired". Perhaps. Or perhaps the narrow cars should be widened. This is just as valid an argument.
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Old 02-22-2012, 05:06 PM   #4129
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I can understand the points about the independent suspension cars but I can also tell you the disadvantages. The rear of the car is much heavier. With all of the extra weight on the rear of the car it pushes like a train. It also does not have a t bar to control chassis flex. it is a job to keep the inside front tire on the ground in a turn.

I have fought these issues since day one of driving the car. Finally got the tire to stay down and the push is under control from the addition of anti squat but I'm still chasing a f 104 that currently has run 0.4 faster than I have ever gone. I have put a lot of work into getting the IRS right but I still have more to go. The weight alone is enough to equalize the fgx against the other cars. Yes I have lightened it up with a carbon chassis carbon top deck a shorty lipo carbon rear upper arms. Still not as light as that f104.

I enjoy the tuning challenge. If I'm not racing it I'm tuning it. Every week. I would not recommend a IRS f1 if you don't like a tuning challenge.

If I ever do catch that f104 it will be because of many hours of tuning and tuning some more. Just when you think its right time to tune it again. I'm sure someone will say its the IRS that makes it fast. Not true. it took a lot of work to just get it where it is.
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Old 02-22-2012, 05:58 PM   #4130
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Couple points to chew on:

-A spec tire is possible. Ride wheels for the F104, Hpi wheels, F201 wheels and I'm pretty sure the FGX rubber tire wheel all have the same mounting bead. So any tire that fits any of those wheels would work.

-At some point you have to make decisions about things based on the facts. Right now, there is a growing but still limited number of F1 racers. Two classes, one 200mm and one 180 or 190 or whatever "narrow" spec you like would be perfect. The thing is there aren't enough racers to go around. If you look at what UF1 did, they made some rules and said "Come race with us". Yes, the 200mm guys were left out, but guys like FN Cuda came over to the narrow side because he wanted to participate. They get a great response to their races.

The other thing is that Tamiya has a huge influence in the USA, due to the TCS racing schedule. Until recently,if you wanted to race F1, you were racing Tamiya races. Europe and Japan are big on wide cars, due to the availability of 3Racing over Tamiya in some places, and the fact that RCF1GP started a couple years ago based on 200mm cars. That's not the case here in the US. So there are a lot of 180mm cars, the IIC had a nice showing with narrow cars, and Tamiya USA pushes those cars in their series, which is the biggest thing going over the whole of the country.

The answer to this whole thing is going to make people mad, no matter how it comes down.
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Old 02-22-2012, 06:10 PM   #4131
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Couple points to chew on:

-A spec tire is possible. Ride wheels for the F104, Hpi wheels, F201 wheels and I'm pretty sure the FGX rubber tire wheel all have the same mounting bead. So any tire that fits any of those wheels would work.

-At some point you have to make decisions about things based on the facts. Right now, there is a growing but still limited number of F1 racers. Two classes, one 200mm and one 180 or 190 or whatever "narrow" spec you like would be perfect. The thing is there aren't enough racers to go around. If you look at what UF1 did, they made some rules and said "Come race with us". Yes, the 200mm guys were left out, but guys like FN Cuda came over to the narrow side because he wanted to participate. They get a great response to their races.

The other thing is that Tamiya has a huge influence in the USA, due to the TCS racing schedule. Until recently,if you wanted to race F1, you were racing Tamiya races. Europe and Japan are big on wide cars, due to the availability of 3Racing over Tamiya in some places, and the fact that RCF1GP started a couple years ago based on 200mm cars. That's not the case here in the US. So there are a lot of 180mm cars, the IIC had a nice showing with narrow cars, and Tamiya USA pushes those cars in their series, which is the biggest thing going over the whole of the country.

The answer to this whole thing is going to make people mad, no matter how it comes down.
Unfortunately the spec tire idea is not as easy as rim size. each car handles very differently on each compound. F104 likes a hard rear and a soft front slick tires. The fgx likes soft rears and soft or medium fronts. Grooves. If you spec a f1 tire then you end up with a spec chassis.
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Old 02-22-2012, 08:10 PM   #4132
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Unfortunately the spec tire idea is not as easy as rim size. each car handles very differently on each compound. F104 likes a hard rear and a soft front slick tires. The fgx likes soft rears and soft or medium fronts. Grooves. If you spec a f1 tire then you end up with a spec chassis.
I am going to be distributing a new rubber tire that is available for both the 104 and FGX, it is the spec tire being used in the SGF1 series and they work really well. Best part about them? 4 rims, 4 tires, and 4 inserts for $25.
I wanted to try and get them in place for the carpet nats, but the timing didnt work out. By the way how about a throwback to 1991?

Will be available in the paintlab store in the next few days.
And.... I can guarantee you there will be a huge buzz about the next release
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Old 02-22-2012, 08:22 PM   #4133
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I am going to be distributing a new rubber tire that is available for both the 104 and FGX, it is the spec tire being used in the SGF1 series and they work really well. Best part about them? 4 rims, 4 tires, and 4 inserts for $25.
I wanted to try and get them in place for the carpet nats, but the timing didnt work out. By the way how about a throwback to 1991?

Will be available in the paintlab store in the next few days.
And.... I can guarantee you there will be a huge buzz about the next release
Put my name on the list for tires. I want to try them out.

Will they be available as mix and match? I need f104 fronts and fgx rears. Also are they the same compound for each car or are they different compounds designed to be equal on each car?
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Old 02-22-2012, 08:29 PM   #4134
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Put my name on the list for tires. I want to try them out.

Will they be available as mix and match? I need f104 fronts and fgx rears. Also are they the same compound for each car or are they different compounds designed to be equal on each car?
They come in a sealed package of 4, so you would have to buy a set of each. I cdont know if the compounds are different for the two cars, but I can tell you I have run them on a few different tracks with different levels of bite and they are very consistent, and they are real rubber, when you open the package they smell like they came out of a burning building, but I have been told this is the smell of pure rubber. My car felt really balanced on them, plenty of turn in and rear grip without any setup change
I have 50 sets coming in, probably 25 of each car. If people want to preorder I can get a list going, and if the intial 50 sets are spoken for I will up the order
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Old 02-22-2012, 08:34 PM   #4135
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They come in a sealed package of 4, so you would have to buy a set of each. I cdont know if the compounds are different for the two cars, but I can tell you I have run them on a few different tracks with different levels of bite and they are very consistent, and they are real rubber, when you open the package they smell like they came out of a burning building, but I have been told this is the smell of pure rubber. My car felt really balanced on them, plenty of turn in and rear grip without any setup change
I have 50 sets coming in, probably 25 of each car. If people want to preorder I can get a list going, and if the intial 50 sets are spoken for I will up the order
Wow that was quick. Went from a budget set of tires right back to $50 a set faster than I can make a lap on the track.
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Old 02-22-2012, 09:14 PM   #4136
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Shadow, are these spec rubber tires slicks or are they the grooved ones? I'm hoping they are slicks as that is what real F1 cars are now using. I notice that most are switching to the grooved tires as they seem to be hooking up better. It would be great if there was a pure slick tire that would perform just as well. Fingers crossed.
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Old 02-22-2012, 09:29 PM   #4137
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Shadow, are these spec rubber tires slicks or are they the grooved ones? I'm hoping they are slicks as that is what real F1 cars are now using. I notice that most are switching to the grooved tires as they seem to be hooking up better. It would be great if there was a pure slick tire that would perform just as well. Fingers crossed.
Only the FGX is using the grooved right now. Only Pits that fit.
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Old 02-22-2012, 09:30 PM   #4138
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They come in a sealed package of 4, so you would have to buy a set of each. I cdont know if the compounds are different for the two cars, but I can tell you I have run them on a few different tracks with different levels of bite and they are very consistent, and they are real rubber, when you open the package they smell like they came out of a burning building, but I have been told this is the smell of pure rubber. My car felt really balanced on them, plenty of turn in and rear grip without any setup change
I have 50 sets coming in, probably 25 of each car. If people want to preorder I can get a list going, and if the intial 50 sets are spoken for I will up the order
Whats the ETA on these?
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Old 02-22-2012, 10:27 PM   #4139
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Whats the ETA on these?
ETA is within the next 2 weeks
I haven't seen the FGX tires, but I have a feeling that the only difference is the rims. The 104 tires that I had are slicks. I sent them to Alpha cat for him to evaluate, he was positive on them as well
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Old 02-23-2012, 02:17 AM   #4140
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Wow that was quick. Went from a budget set of tires right back to $50 a set faster than I can make a lap on the track.
But you're the one that changed the car to have different fronts and rears, right?
This is the start to our own demise,no?
Parts from this car to fit that car, aftermarket chassis so this car's parts fit that car and on and on.
So much for the kit car to go racing with.
Now it takes the Frankenstein car to be competitive as well as 2 full sets of tires to make one set you can use.
Oh well, guess it still costs money to go fast.

I wanna see what the magic 571 and 572 Pits will do for this FGX car.
Somebody get me some rims to fit these.
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