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Old 02-22-2012, 09:18 AM   #4111
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F1 is pumping life back into onroad. Let's not kill it by arguing over the obvious. Paint 'em nice, charge 'em up, drive 'em hard, and have fun!
I agree.
The problem most of us are serious about our racing (fun class or not). When the older cars were brought out of the mothballs to compete against the newer 104..guess what? They were sometimes faster. This ticked off some folks and stirred up this whole debate/rules ect.
To be honest..most of the time at my local it was not the car..it was the wheel man.

A 103 IS scale and still readily available btw.(Tower has them in stock)

I don't think banning scale f1 cars in a class that you can buy "out of the box" at 200mm is a good idea..When a guy shows up with his 109 or 103 and finds out he can't race his f1 car in the f1 class...is where it get confusing for people looking to get into it.
When exceptions are made for the new chassis of the month and then some other cars are still left out...it confuses people even more.

I have personal experence talking with walk in's on a race day who get attracted to the class because "they look cool" and their interest quickly fades away after they walk around and get 25 different opinions from the 103/104 camp I always try and make my point to them that it's more about the driving in this class not the car.

If anything..all we really need is a tire set that is the same across all chassis.
Just don't think shelfing cars is a good idea to get the class up and running as long as they fit within a semi f1 scale appearance. (I think we all agree pan car style f1 is not what we want).

VTA=Everyone is on the same tire..width can be adjusted via hex shims (usually + or -5mm on most cars) any chassis,we know the rest of the rules.

T-car= Most tracks have a "spec" tire everyone must use..width again can be adjusted via.shims on most cars..any chassis,max width 200mm (but I think roar is still 190mm)

1/10 RCGT=Spec. tire everyone must run...open chassis,width can be adjusted for tuning.

1/10 wgt=spec tire everyone must run..open chassis,width can be adjusted for tuning.

1/12= tires (f/r) are all the same width,and diameter (for the most part ) open 1/12 chassis,width can be adjusted for tuning.
These guys have it figured out already.

We all have valid points and our passion for the class sparks up much debate..Good ,bad or indifferent.
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Old 02-22-2012, 09:28 AM   #4112
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Okay, to be honest, reading your guys posts pushs me away from this class.... Everything points back to Tamiya having a HUGE grip on this class. Let it go and let people make there decisions on what chassis to run. So what if that next guys chassis is has a slight difference... The FGX has a TRUE to scale drivetrain, since when did you see a solid axle F1 car. Or should we call these Go Karts.

When its time to buy a F1 car I will buy a FGX and enjoy it. If the next guy thinks its an advantage I'll tell him they are only $120 go buy one.
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Old 02-22-2012, 09:35 AM   #4113
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LOL@Tamak...
Well put.
It used to be fun the F1 class but hearing this it will be a pain to drive there.
Thank god we don't have those issues here.
We can drive the F104 in all specs(exept exotec) en de F103 also.
Foam or rubber, no problem.
Only rule is, it has to be Tamiya(dohh it is the Tamiya Cup) and you need a spec motor.
Heeps of fun and the turnout is getting bigger and bigger.

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Old 02-22-2012, 09:43 AM   #4114
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At this point in the game, a spec tire in F1 is virtually impossible. Some chassis work better with certain tires. If spec tires are used, it may narrow the class to one patricular car. I think we really need to look to the UF1 guys for opinions due to their extensive testing. They have been racing F1 consistantly as a group for a while now and we can learn a lot from their format and rules. The main problem I see from some of the discussions is that they are more destructive than constructive. Personally, I like the 190mm, rubber tire rule. I feel that as the class gains more ground on a local level, maybe an open class could be created; up to 200mm, foams, maybe even a hotter motor. But in the meantime, there needs to be a standard. just my $.02
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Old 02-22-2012, 09:57 AM   #4115
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LOL@Tamak...
Well put.
It used to be fun the F1 class but hearing this it will be a pain to drive there.
Yeah, I'm surprised at the arguments, to be honest.

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Thank god we don't have those issues here.
We can drive the F104 in all specs(exept exotec) en de F103 also.
Foam or rubber, no problem.
Only rule is, it has to be Tamiya(dohh it is the Tamiya Cup) and you need a spec motor.
Heeps of fun and the turnout is getting bigger and bigger.
We run an 'open' F1 class at AMCA (Apeldoorn), the only limit being a club standard brushed motor (but we allow the TamiyaCup one for obvious reasons ). Simply heaps of fun.
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Old 02-22-2012, 10:00 AM   #4116
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Usf1 guys have a good set of rules with a great following of dedicated f1 racers.

Please don't confuse a discussion about current rules ect. with inner class "war"

I think we all (me included) follow our local track rules set by the local track race directors.
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Old 02-22-2012, 10:02 AM   #4117
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No reason to get turned off to f1. I can guarantee it is one of the most fun and interesting classes to run. This debates over a national rule set. Your local track will probably have a rule set that is easy to follow and a lot of fun. Some are more open some more restrictive but they are all fun. The fact that this discussion is taking place is good for the future of the class. Lots of good opinions and information. If you go to the vta thread you will find the same type of discussion right now. Its a growing pain but in the end it is good for the class. Whatever the result of this is it will have parts that we like and parts we don't but it will help f1 grow in the long run. At least we are participating and trying to come to an agreement. If more people participated in things then the USA wouldn't be facing all of the challenges it is right now. Sitting on the sidelines and not participating doesn't help anyone.

I have gained a lot of respect for everyone participating this discussion.The ones I agree with and the ones I don't. It makes me feel like I can go to any track and hang out with any of these guys and learn from them while having a ton of fun.
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Old 02-22-2012, 10:05 AM   #4118
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I dont think that it's a matter of the 104 being obsolete, it's about scale. In most cases, the F1 class appeals to the "modeler" in all of us. Tamiya has always tried to keep that relevant with their kits which is why the F104 is narrower like it's 1:1 counterpart, as opposed to the older generation F1s. If we allow the balance to shift from model first, racer second, we will lose the spirit of F1 R/C racing (ask a TC racer that's been around a while). F1 is pumping life back into onroad. Let's not kill it by arguing over the obvious. Paint 'em nice, charge 'em up, drive 'em hard, and have fun!
Thunderbunny......every word you mentioned in your above post I agree with 100%. Well said. You really nailed it. It would be great if everyone had your exact feelings about this fun F1 class.
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Old 02-22-2012, 10:07 AM   #4119
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[QUOTE=ijdod;10365871]Yeah, I'm surprised at the arguments, to be honest

I don't see this as a destructive argument but rather a healthy mature discussion. No one has gotten mad or nasty over any of these posts. Sorry if it looks different but I think we all want what will help f1 grow.
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Old 02-22-2012, 10:08 AM   #4120
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No reason to get turned off to f1. I can guarantee it is one of the most fun and interesting classes to run. This debates over a national rule set. Your local track will probably have a rule set that is easy to follow and a lot of fun.
Well said sir.
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Old 02-22-2012, 10:09 AM   #4121
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IMHO, I think that the discussion between the 200mm width versus 190mm and under is silly to be this huge. I’m glad that ROAR actually made a good call and enforced for this year’s ROAR Nationals in F1 is 190mm and under.
It's silly how you claim the discussion is silly, yet then go on to claim that 190mm is the way to go. "It's a silly argument because I'm right".

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Yes that is still biased because of the popularity of the FGX, but the only other real F1 competitors is the HPI F10 and the Tamiya F104 both at 180 (true to scale F1).
The 200mm cars are also true to scale F1. They're also competitive, and available. Your argument lose even more credibility that you seem to be fine with a 190mm car. I'm sorry, but you can't have the cake and eat it too.

From a (potential) performance perspective I would be far more worried about an IRS car, that I would be about a 20mm wider but otherwise identical car.
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Old 02-22-2012, 10:21 AM   #4122
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Until its all figured out and everyone agrees we can argue about it. And that's never going to happen, so let's keep beating the dead horse.
Honestly, on rubber tires, how big is the difference between the 103 and 104? On our track, not much, if any. FGX is actually a bit slower than both. Equal driver.
As far as scale, yes I see the point with mixing bodies. I'm one of the clowns that sometimes runs a wide body on a narrow car. I like the old bodies. They don't look bad on a narrow car. Narrow body on wide car looks a bit odd. Let's just race, sort it out when there is enough to do so.
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Old 02-22-2012, 11:30 AM   #4123
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Real F1 cars must be no more than 180cm wide. That means their 1/10 scale counterpart, assuming this is in fact truly a "scale" class should also be no wider than 1/10 of that which is 180mm wide. Congrats you guys can only use 1 car!

A 205mm width means that in the real world you could have an F1 car that is a foot wider than current. The reality is that in a stock class, at the relatively slow speeds being run, the width difference isn't going to matter all that much. If we were talking about modifieds where people are running 60 mph then you bet the width difference is going to change the game for some. We also have many new people joining this class who have never raced before and who have never tuned these cars. We are going to see this all play a far greater role than the width differences.

We are already seeing people that are buying these cars, assembling them box stock, and are then running them box stock, tires and all. Then we've got guys who practice all week and work on setting the cars up who are running soft sticky tires. It's obvious who the faster guys are going to be regardless of car width. My biggest concern is if someone comes along and starts to dominate even within the strict scope of the rules, that rules will be changed to handicap them later. This quite frankly scares me since the goal for others should be to catch them not slow them down. I'm not saying this will happen but with all the other stupid things here you never know. Don't let that start as a rumor. It isn't one. It's just something that I'm going to pay attention to in the future.
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Old 02-22-2012, 11:35 AM   #4124
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From a (potential) performance perspective I would be far more worried about an IRS car, that I would be about a 20mm wider but otherwise identical car.
Thats a good point too. I like the IRS car, but I can see it driving the price through the roof if any of the other "race brands" get involved. I think the only saving grace in that, is the motor. The Silver can/21.5 motors keep the cars just slow enough (barely ) to keep the set-up sweet spot broad enough that the tires can do the majority of the work. As for the 20mm, it really does make a difference. I had a traction rolling problem at the Carpet Nat Warm-up. If my car was 20mm wider w/smaller tires I doubt if it would have been a problem.
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Old 02-22-2012, 11:57 AM   #4125
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I understand your point. I believe my point of view as a racer and not a director is the same as yours as a director first racer second. As a racer I want more drivers on the track so the f1 class I love can thrive and I have good people to race with not worrying if there will be enough cars to make the class that day. As a director you want more cars on the track to create a larger class for, lets be brutally to the point, more income to keep your business and track open. We both want more racers for different reasons.
I'm was just the director...not a shop owner. Often times I actually lost money running the races. My reason for being a director and wanting more racers was so that I could race...if I didn't do it no one would have. I am currently not the race director but help out a lot with it and probably will be again someday.

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Now if you have 20 f1 guys showing up then this is a valid discussion. You can split your class. You are probably running an a main and a b main anyway. If you look at a lot of these posts most guys on here are not in that situation. We are lucky to have 2 or 3 other cars to race against. If we split into wide and narrow at our track we would end up with one narrow f104 two wide 109 and 103 and one medium (might as well complicate this further) a fgx. Now if you split this class, assuming everyone shows, logic would say race the fgx with the 103 & 109 in the wide class and send the f104 packing home. Lost competition and a friend and the track loses the revenue from that racer probably permanently. I would rather get my butt kicked by that f 104 so I have more competition and someone else to learn from.

Run them all together. If you have enough split the class. It really is that simple. The way things are going now the next debate will be foam vs rubber. A wide rubber class narrow rubber class wide foam class narrow foam class. Hell guys we can keep hacking this up and end up with 10 classes for 5 cars. Keep it simple. One f1 class split IF enough racers show up.

By the way my vta chassis comes out around 195mm with the wheel hexes ( not including tires). Guess I need to start a petition for a wide vta class.
Oh I agree run them all together for now...that's what we are doing at our track. I'm just making sure everyone understands...once you let the genie out of the bottle you can't put it back in. In other words once you start letting 200mm run with the 190mm and 180mm you won't be able to change that because too many people will have invested in other sizes. Yes F1 appeals to the modeler in all of us...but eventually the racer side comes out and we start looking for every advantage we can get. Then it becomes X chassis has an advantage so unless you run that you don't stand a chance and then racers start to quit and the class dies. The ones that don't quit because of competitiveness end up quitting because the class becomes less and less scale looking. We saw this happen back in the F103 + foam tire days (before rubber tires came out). When the pan car style cars started competing against the F103s, the F103s dwindled in numbers.

What I see is that what is good for the class now, allowing all the cars to run together, is also what will likely kill the class in the future.
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