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Old 02-22-2012, 03:13 AM   #4096
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For myself, I really appreciate the time and effort people put into realistic livery. That said, I'm a racer first, so my bodies tend to be painted to visibility. This may not be a huge deal outdoors in the sunlight, but in the evenings or indoors, with artificial lighting, I find it makes a substantial difference.
I do too but I also appreciate those that put the time and effort into what could be a realistic livery.
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Old 02-22-2012, 03:29 AM   #4097
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There is no catch 22 unless you want there to be one. Run them all together.

This is not directed at anyone but I'm beginning to wonder if this discussion isn't really about the class but about people being afraid they will get beat. The best thing for the class is more racers period. The difference between the 103 104 104w 109 fgx etc is not noticeable. So a f104w set a new record so what. does that mean that the 104w should be banned from club racing? The fgx rabbit conversion is tearing up the tracks in aisa. But its 190 mm. So what.

If you truly want this to be a popular class like vta then take the vta rules. ANY I repeat ANY 1/10 4WD TOURING CAR CHASSIS IS ALLOWED. Why does f1 have to exclude chassis based on width? Especially when the discussion is over 20mm.

Just race them. If you get beat by a wider or narrower can I can guarantee it wasn't the car that beat you. It was the driver and his ability to set up his car to suit the track conditions.
There may not be that much difference now...but eventually there will be as people figure things out. Currently the F104's have the advantage of the better choice in tire compound where the F103's have the advantage of the wider stance and shorter wheelbase. Give the f103's the same rubber with their wider rear tire and the game changes. Even more so if you look at foams...

Keep in mind that some of us are looking at this from the perspective of the racer and some of us are looking at this from the perspective of the race organizer...and these are often not exactly the same point of view.

While keeping things open to start with may be good for the short term of the class they my not necessarily be good for the long term. And the reverse holds true as well...If we can't get the participation to start with the long term may be a moot point. For the race director it is a precarious balance to try and get things right.
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Old 02-22-2012, 03:29 AM   #4098
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Quote: "ANY 1/10 4WD TOURING CAR CHASSIS IS ALLOWED" end quote

I used to race touring cars, and unless the basic rules have changed, I thought ALL electric 4WD touring cars are the same width, 190mm, and pretty much the same wheelbase. Maybe I'm wrong, it's been a while. If that is the case it sort of shoots a bit of a hole in your point about it not mattering what width F1 cars are, because using touring cars as an analogy wouldn't work if what I think is true.

Having said that it; I do agree that the manufacturers need to come up with a standard for ALL F1 cars and stick to it. I think Tamiya re-released the "classic body" cars like the Lotus 79 and the Wolf and Sennas' McLaren for those who want to do a classic F1 series; I don't think they were ever intended to be raced alongside the F104. Now 3 Racing should have made the FGX the same width as the F104 and the current HPI car, but unfortunately they did'nt. But the visual difference between 180mm to 190mm is really not noticeable; it's not as drastic as the difference between a 180mm F104 and a 200mm F103. That difference anyone can plainly see, and in most cases it does effect performance/handling.

Having said all this; I do predict that in the near future we will see a shift towards ALL F1 cars going the fully independent suspension route of the FGX. It is known that HPI already has a prototype that they have raced overseas. And I have read on these forums that Tamiya is currently in the process of developing a fully independent rear wheel drive F1 car.

I personally am in favor of anything that makes the F1 cars more scale realistic. I know that the folks who favor the solid axle cars like the F104 and F103 are not going to like that, but I sincerely believe that the above scenario that I described is where F1 is going sooner or later. I bet on sooner. Time will tell.
With the spec wheels VTA cars are actually 200m wide up front, 210mm wide in the rear. Also, most electric touring cars are 190mm, but some are 200mm.
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Old 02-22-2012, 03:45 AM   #4099
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I live in Perth, Western Australia. There are only 3 tracks to race at, one of which is carpet. That carpet track is 1 of only 2 carpet tracks in Australia

Numbers are very low at the moment, where we'd be lucky to see 20 racers at the track. I would absolutely love to have enough numbers to race an F1 against, but as most run mini or tourers this is not possible.

Given the above situation, we really cant afford to turn anyone away. Rules must allow for anyone with anything to rock up at the track just so we can get the numbers, especially for classes like F1.

We cant afford to turn people away because of their chassis width, rear axle configuration, body shell paint scheme or even because they run some absurdly big wing from a 1/5th scale F1 toy bought at a cash and carry store (and yes, someone has been using that bolted to the rear of their F1 because of "traction issues").

Its worth contemplating the above when you're arguing/discussing about what should and shouldnt be allowed as some of us just dont have the options.. but we still have a damn fun time doing what we do!
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Old 02-22-2012, 04:45 AM   #4100
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...or even because they run some absurdly big wing from a 1/5th scale F1 toy bought at a cash and carry store (and yes, someone has been using that bolted to the rear of their F1 because of "traction issues").
If it'd improve my laptimes, I'd run with a barn door bolted to my car. Not that I feel it would work, at some point the additional drag outweighs any benefit in downforce.

That said, back when I was still racing F1, every driver had at least a few different front and read wings, to suit different tracks or even different track conditions. These cars are aerodynamically active
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Old 02-22-2012, 06:00 AM   #4101
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There may not be that much difference now...but eventually there will be as people figure things out. Currently the F104's have the advantage of the better choice in tire compound where the F103's have the advantage of the wider stance and shorter wheelbase. Give the f103's the same rubber with their wider rear tire and the game changes. Even more so if you look at foams...

Keep in mind that some of us are looking at this from the perspective of the racer and some of us are looking at this from the perspective of the race organizer...and these are often not exactly the same point of view.

While keeping things open to start with may be good for the short term of the class they my not necessarily be good for the long term. And the reverse holds true as well...If we can't get the participation to start with the long term may be a moot point. For the race director it is a precarious balance to try and get things right.
I understand your point. I believe my point of view as a racer and not a director is the same as yours as a director first racer second. As a racer I want more drivers on the track so the f1 class I love can thrive and I have good people to race with not worrying if there will be enough cars to make the class that day. As a director you want more cars on the track to create a larger class for, lets be brutally to the point, more income to keep your business and track open. We both want more racers for different reasons.

Now if you have 20 f1 guys showing up then this is a valid discussion. You can split your class. You are probably running an a main and a b main anyway. If you look at a lot of these posts most guys on here are not in that situation. We are lucky to have 2 or 3 other cars to race against. If we split into wide and narrow at our track we would end up with one narrow f104 two wide 109 and 103 and one medium (might as well complicate this further) a fgx. Now if you split this class, assuming everyone shows, logic would say race the fgx with the 103 & 109 in the wide class and send the f104 packing home. Lost competition and a friend and the track loses the revenue from that racer probably permanently. I would rather get my butt kicked by that f 104 so I have more competition and someone else to learn from.

Run them all together. If you have enough split the class. It really is that simple. The way things are going now the next debate will be foam vs rubber. A wide rubber class narrow rubber class wide foam class narrow foam class. Hell guys we can keep hacking this up and end up with 10 classes for 5 cars. Keep it simple. One f1 class split IF enough racers show up.

By the way my vta chassis comes out around 195mm with the wheel hexes ( not including tires). Guess I need to start a petition for a wide vta class.
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Old 02-22-2012, 06:19 AM   #4102
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As far as the handling difference between a 180 and 200 sure there is. Wider is more stable narrow is more agile but darty. Either car can be tuned just as fast as the other. Width plays a part but so do tires shocks shock oil springs ride height droop caster camber toe etc etc. The width is probably less important than finding the balance between all of the other tuning options. A f104 can be just as fast and probably more agile than a f103.

As a side note vta does not have a rule against widening or narrowing your chassis. You are allowed to use narrower suspension arms and mounts to thin the car up or spacers and hexes to widen the car. We all run together and there is no difference.
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Old 02-22-2012, 06:21 AM   #4103
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I was until last October a Race Director, but the club I used to race at decided to outlaw F1 and GT cars, only EP TC's were allowed (a main reason I quit racing last October), but if it were down to me I would have 3 classes but run them together if numbers were low while at the same time keeping points championships separate.
On the subject of points, what I did with GT when we had them racing was (as above) run as 3 classes with each having there own points, but then have those points put to one main points table, this could mean someone from the slowest class winning the championship.
Surely the race program I was using (RC-Timing) can't be the only one to allow you to merge classes ?

If it were down to me, the classes would be :
190 Solid Axle (Rubber Only)
210 Solid Axle (Foam and Rubber)
200 Split Axle (too early to say tires)

I am still in the process of moving house and sorting out my bits and bobs, so not ready to return to racing just yet, although I am now only 86 miles from a major indoor club that is pushing F1 and GT hard, 58 miles closer than I was before.
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Old 02-22-2012, 07:24 AM   #4104
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IMHO, I think that the discussion between the 200mm width versus 190mm and under is silly to be this huge. Iím glad that ROAR actually made a good call and enforced for this yearís ROAR Nationals in F1 is 190mm and under. Yes that is still biased because of the popularity of the FGX, but the only other real F1 competitors is the HPI F10 and the Tamiya F104 both at 180 (true to scale F1).

From a racer and competitorís point of view I donít want someone to have ANY width advantage over my 180 mm F104, you are kidding yourself if you donít think that the extra width isnít to your advantage. Also IRS versus Solid rear axle; these are narrow, rear wheel drive 1/10 pan cars on a smooth surface; they will be close for a while.

Now as far as my local track?? It does not bother me one bit if you run an older F102/F103 as long as you are not one of the top 3 every week. If you are that good at tuning/racing then please respect your fellow drivers and respect what the current class is and upgrade your car to be 180 with newer Tamiya parts or replace your car to a modern rig.

Classes evolve over time; and racing in a Ďrealisticí class such as F1 is going to make some chassisí obsolete. How many people quit racing 1/12 because they had to upgrade their chassis to accept a lipo battery? How about Pro10 versus WGT? Sometimes you just have to let a car/chassis go out to pasture so to speak.

As far as specific track rules, it has to be extremely difficult for a track owner to keep their race entries up and build up quality classes for everyone to follow. As far as an F1 class goes, there really wasnít much of a standard and if a particular track has specific rules they probably were developed by some of the racers at that track as well. Where I race in Toledo, we pretty much follow the TCS rules, specíd our tires and we have 15-20 cars in total but get around 10-12 every week. Would I love to go out and get an Exotek F1R, yes but I run what we run and it was developed by the racers who wanted to start the class. I CHOSE to participate in this class. Every once and while we will get a new racer into the class and they might have a different chassis but we wonít shun them away, they can play toy cars too.

Anyway, good luck developing this class in your area; I for one look forward to all of the new chassis yet to be released with IRS and solid rear axle that fit the 180/190mm width.
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Old 02-22-2012, 08:01 AM   #4105
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You summed up this whole discussion in one statement. You don't want anyone to have an advantage over your car. As long as they aren't in the top three let them run. In other words I don't care what they run as long as I win.

Again its not their car beating you its the driver and the setup. Yes technology advances and chassis become obsolete but its no reason to exclude them. If they are obsolete then why are you worried about getting beat? Sounds like the new generation of f1 missed the Mark and the 103 should be the standard. Should everyone shelf the 104 to go back to the 103? That's what is being asked of the 103 owners.

I say you in the post but it is not directed at you just used as an example.
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Old 02-22-2012, 08:26 AM   #4106
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Good stuff so far. At what point should the grandfathering of older cars stop? 1 year, 2 years, 5 years? The F104W with the old body sets kind of messed things up.

Let's look 5 years down the road. We now see mostly IRS 190mm cars running rubber tires. Motor size depends on track size. There still a few guys running F103s with the current tire and a couple hopped up F104s. We see WRC, Tamiya, 3Racing, HPI and Traxxas(tee-hee) cars as the norm. There are still guys wanting to push the envelope as their only goal in life is to win every time they set a car down. The rest of us will still be trying to win, but having fun with the hobby.
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Old 02-22-2012, 08:32 AM   #4107
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You summed up this whole discussion in one statement. You don't want anyone to have an advantage over your car. As long as they aren't in the top three let them run. In other words I don't care what they run as long as I win.

Again its not their car beating you its the driver and the setup. Yes technology advances and chassis become obsolete but its no reason to exclude them. If they are obsolete then why are you worried about getting beat? Sounds like the new generation of f1 missed the Mark and the 103 should be the standard. Should everyone shelf the 104 to go back to the 103? That's what is being asked of the 103 owners.

I say you in the post but it is not directed at you just used as an example.
Vette,

I do understand your post completely; I know you did not mean to attack or offend me with your post. I just want to be clear that what I said by "as long as your are not top 3 I dont care" is dont use a car that is outside the rule box for current class standards to gain an advantage is all. I do not believe a F103 to be obsolete chassis as far as speed and handling, just the Tamiya part number. Thank you for respecting my post.

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Old 02-22-2012, 08:34 AM   #4108
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Good stuff so far. At what point should the grandfathering of older cars stop? 1 year, 2 years, 5 years? The F104W with the old body sets kind of messed things up.

Let's look 5 years down the road. We now see mostly IRS 190mm cars running rubber tires. Motor size depends on track size. There still a few guys running F103s with the current tire and a couple hopped up F104s. We see WRC, Tamiya, 3Racing, HPI and Traxxas(tee-hee) cars as the norm. There are still guys wanting to push the envelope as their only goal in life is to win every time they set a car down. The rest of us will still be trying to win, but having fun with the hobby.
Love the post and the look into the future. Makes you think a little.

If we continue to exclude chassis based on 20mm of width from widest to thinnest then the future = no f1 class to run.
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Old 02-22-2012, 08:39 AM   #4109
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I dont think that it's a matter of the 104 being obsolete, it's about scale. In most cases, the F1 class appeals to the "modeler" in all of us. Tamiya has always tried to keep that relevant with their kits which is why the F104 is narrower like it's 1:1 counterpart, as opposed to the older generation F1s. If we allow the balance to shift from model first, racer second, we will lose the spirit of F1 R/C racing (ask a TC racer that's been around a while). F1 is pumping life back into onroad. Let's not kill it by arguing over the obvious. Paint 'em nice, charge 'em up, drive 'em hard, and have fun!
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Old 02-22-2012, 09:11 AM   #4110
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I dont think that it's a matter of the 104 being obsolete, it's about scale. In most cases, the F1 class appeals to the "modeler" in all of us. Tamiya has always tried to keep that relevant with their kits which is why the F104 is narrower like it's 1:1 counterpart, as opposed to the older generation F1s. If we allow the balance to shift from model first, racer second, we will lose the spirit of F1 R/C racing (ask a TC racer that's been around a while). F1 is pumping life back into onroad. Let's not kill it by arguing over the obvious. Paint 'em nice, charge 'em up, drive 'em hard, and have fun!
+1
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