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Old 02-21-2012, 06:05 PM   #4081
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FYI, I'm not trying to force opinion. I am hoping some other logical thinkers can put some thoughts out there for us to ponder. I guess I'm searching for that Pie in the Sky answer, one close enough for everyone to say that's reasonable. The reason VTA works so well is that the rules were well thought out, then followed. Of course some will be angry and not want to play if the same is done for F1. USF1 is great, but as of the latest revision appears to restrict wide cars. Other than that, I love their rule set. I do have the opinion that there are more wide cars in the world than there are narrow cars, regardless of brand. I don't have an F104, but I do have 2 FGXs, 4 F103s and a Pan F1. I probably should get an F104 or narrow one of my F103s.
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Old 02-21-2012, 06:12 PM   #4082
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I would modify it a bit.
"F1" chassis,"F1" designed front end (no pan car stuff).
200mm max width,foam or rubber..Scale bodies set to car width.
BUT
All cars running 104 size rims.
With cars at 190mm now, the extra 5mm per side
is not the game changer (think we still run t-cars at both 190 and 200 right?).
It's the much wider 103 tire.
On the same tire the 5mm per side difference will be a non issue...
Yes the 103/109 might look a bit goofy with the tall rubber tires but on cut foam it's not noticeable.
Some of the big pluses are readily available tires and we (if tracks want to)
can be on a "spec" tire .
Downside is there is no "kit" out right now to get the 104 rims on a 103 at to match the 200mm front. (starting to sound like a broken record..I know..but it's on topic now).
So this is all a pipe dream....
Only other thing it would require would be a few shims under the 103 front to get the car at proper ride height (I have done it...very easy to accomplish).
Everyone gets to play.
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Old 02-21-2012, 06:13 PM   #4083
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I think I may have a parts tree, maybe 2 that I can sell, will have to check
PM me if you have some mirrors.
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Old 02-21-2012, 07:10 PM   #4084
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Well we kinda got stuck in a catch 22...with TC the manufacturers seemed to standardize to 190mm for electric all on their own then ROAR was able to write the rules around that so that future cars would also be 190mm. With F1 in the F103 days they were pretty much standardized at 200mm...then F1 died out. We'll skip the F201 because it doesn't pertain to today's cars. So then the F104 comes out and F1 has a revival. HPI builds their car and it looks like the standard is going to be 180mm for the new cars. But then Tamiya throws a monkey wrench in things and re-releases the F103 and releases the F104W and now we have 2 sizes...then 3Racing's FGX messes things up further by going 190mm. Now this leaves us all stuck between a rock and a hard place due to the manufacturers not standardizing themselves. If we write rules to a 180mm or 190mm standard we isolate all the 200mm cars...if we write the rules to 200mm then the 180mm and 190mm cars are all at a disadvantage and quite honestly to build a newer style F1 to 200mm just looks weird. But if a general rule set isn't agreed upon by all racers then the manufacturers will continue to just make whatever they want. With RC in general having much lower turn outs then say 15 years ago we really don't have enough racers to split the classes. Essentially we are all stuck and there really isn't much we can do about it so long as the manufacturers don't get in step.
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Old 02-21-2012, 07:16 PM   #4085
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Well we kinda got stuck in a catch 22...with TC the manufacturers seemed to standardize to 190mm for electric all on their own then ROAR was able to write the rules around that so that future cars would also be 190mm. With F1 in the F103 days they were pretty much standardized at 200mm...then F1 died out. We'll skip the F201 because it doesn't pertain to today's cars. So then the F104 comes out and F1 has a revival. HPI builds their car and it looks like the standard is going to be 180mm for the new cars. But then Tamiya throws a monkey wrench in things and re-releases the F103 and releases the F104W and now we have 2 sizes...then 3Racing's FGX messes things up further by going 190mm. Now this leaves us all stuck between a rock and a hard place due to the manufacturers not standardizing themselves. If we write rules to a 180mm or 190mm standard we isolate all the 200mm cars...if we write the rules to 200mm then the 180mm and 190mm cars are all at a disadvantage and quite honestly to build a newer style F1 to 200mm just looks weird. But if a general rule set isn't agreed upon by all racers then the manufacturers will continue to just make whatever they want. With RC in general having much lower turn outs then say 15 years ago we really don't have enough racers to split the classes. Essentially we are all stuck and there really isn't much we can do about it so long as the manufacturers don't get in step.
Does it really matter at anything other than the highest levels? At my track we race everything together. The best driver's are running f104s, so the f104s are winning.
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Old 02-21-2012, 07:17 PM   #4086
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Everything is bigger in Texas, especially their rule book.
only a close minded individual who has nothing better to do would resort to comments such as this.
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Old 02-21-2012, 07:38 PM   #4087
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Originally Posted by InspGadgt View Post
Well we kinda got stuck in a catch 22...with TC the manufacturers seemed to standardize to 190mm for electric all on their own then ROAR was able to write the rules around that so that future cars would also be 190mm. With F1 in the F103 days they were pretty much standardized at 200mm...then F1 died out. We'll skip the F201 because it doesn't pertain to today's cars. So then the F104 comes out and F1 has a revival. HPI builds their car and it looks like the standard is going to be 180mm for the new cars. But then Tamiya throws a monkey wrench in things and re-releases the F103 and releases the F104W and now we have 2 sizes...then 3Racing's FGX messes things up further by going 190mm. Now this leaves us all stuck between a rock and a hard place due to the manufacturers not standardizing themselves. If we write rules to a 180mm or 190mm standard we isolate all the 200mm cars...if we write the rules to 200mm then the 180mm and 190mm cars are all at a disadvantage and quite honestly to build a newer style F1 to 200mm just looks weird. But if a general rule set isn't agreed upon by all racers then the manufacturers will continue to just make whatever they want. With RC in general having much lower turn outs then say 15 years ago we really don't have enough racers to split the classes. Essentially we are all stuck and there really isn't much we can do about it so long as the manufacturers don't get in step.
There is no catch 22 unless you want there to be one. Run them all together.

This is not directed at anyone but I'm beginning to wonder if this discussion isn't really about the class but about people being afraid they will get beat. The best thing for the class is more racers period. The difference between the 103 104 104w 109 fgx etc is not noticeable. So a f104w set a new record so what. does that mean that the 104w should be banned from club racing? The fgx rabbit conversion is tearing up the tracks in aisa. But its 190 mm. So what.

If you truly want this to be a popular class like vta then take the vta rules. ANY I repeat ANY 1/10 4WD TOURING CAR CHASSIS IS ALLOWED. Why does f1 have to exclude chassis based on width? Especially when the discussion is over 20mm.

Just race them. If you get beat by a wider or narrower can I can guarantee it wasn't the car that beat you. It was the driver and his ability to set up his car to suit the track conditions.
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Old 02-21-2012, 07:42 PM   #4088
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Default The object is to have fun!!

Being an F1 noob and from Cypress I am a little surprised at the opinionated posts from folks. Rules?? Yes we need some general rules to keep it under control.

Guys it is a Parking Lot!!!! I know the rules are for Mikes too but gee let's get some new blood in the hobby before the competitive poo heads run then off.

Lets just have some fun. I have been racing on and off since 1985 and I do it to have a good time. After 30 years I still can't drive for ****. That doesn't keep me from dropping tons of money to support a new hobby shop in the area!!

All hail Woody for putting on the Sunday F1 FUNDAY!!

All rule mongers and rule bashers stop smile and at least try to have a good time.

Cheers
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Old 02-21-2012, 07:45 PM   #4089
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There is no catch 22 unless you want there to be one. Run them all together.

This is not directed at anyone but I'm beginning to wonder if this discussion isn't really about the class but about people being afraid they will get beat. The best thing for the class is more racers period. The difference between the 103 104 104w 109 fgx etc is not noticeable. So a f104w set a new record so what. does that mean that the 104w should be banned from club racing? The fgx rabbit conversion is tearing up the tracks in aisa. But its 190 mm. So what.

If you truly want this to be a popular class like vta then take the vta rules. ANY I repeat ANY 1/10 4WD TOURING CAR CHASSIS IS ALLOWED. Why does f1 have to exclude chassis based on width? Especially when the discussion is over 20mm.

Just race them. If you get beat by a wider or narrower can I can guarantee it wasn't the car that beat you. It was the driver and his ability to set up his car to suit the track conditions.
Nailed it!
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Old 02-21-2012, 07:48 PM   #4090
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Originally Posted by Genshed62 View Post
Being an F1 noob and from Cypress I am a little surprised at the opinionated posts from folks. Rules?? Yes we need some general rules to keep it under control.

Guys it is a Parking Lot!!!! I know the rules are for Mikes too but gee let's get some new blood in the hobby before the competitive poo heads run then off.

Lets just have some fun. I have been racing on and off since 1985 and I do it to have a good time. After 30 years I still can't drive for ****. That doesn't keep me from dropping tons of money to support a new hobby shop in the area!!

All hail Woody for putting on the Sunday F1 FUNDAY!!

All rule mongers and rule bashers stop smile and at least try to have a good time.

Cheers
Agreed. As I stated before, I have no problem with rules, it is what it is, just attitudes. I love the fact that people (especially a really good LHS) are jumping on board with a fun, affordable class and, after some outside conversations stemming from the earlier conversation on here, I decided to go forward with getting a car and getting involved in the very near future. Sadly though, one of them is "representing" the shop
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Old 02-21-2012, 07:57 PM   #4091
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Nailed it!

I agree as well - whatever brings in the most racers. If someone is just slaughtering folks for an entire season, perhaps things need to be addressed then.
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Old 02-21-2012, 10:18 PM   #4092
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There is no catch 22 unless you want there to be one. Run them all together.

This is not directed at anyone but I'm beginning to wonder if this discussion isn't really about the class but about people being afraid they will get beat. The best thing for the class is more racers period. The difference between the 103 104 104w 109 fgx etc is not noticeable. So a f104w set a new record so what. does that mean that the 104w should be banned from club racing? The fgx rabbit conversion is tearing up the tracks in aisa. But its 190 mm. So what.

If you truly want this to be a popular class like vta then take the vta rules. ANY I repeat ANY 1/10 4WD TOURING CAR CHASSIS IS ALLOWED. Why does f1 have to exclude chassis based on width? Especially when the discussion is over 20mm.

Just race them. If you get beat by a wider or narrower can I can guarantee it wasn't the car that beat you. It was the driver and his ability to set up his car to suit the track conditions.
Quote: "ANY 1/10 4WD TOURING CAR CHASSIS IS ALLOWED" end quote

I used to race touring cars, and unless the basic rules have changed, I thought ALL electric 4WD touring cars are the same width, 190mm, and pretty much the same wheelbase. Maybe I'm wrong, it's been a while. If that is the case it sort of shoots a bit of a hole in your point about it not mattering what width F1 cars are, because using touring cars as an analogy wouldn't work if what I think is true.

Having said that it; I do agree that the manufacturers need to come up with a standard for ALL F1 cars and stick to it. I think Tamiya re-released the "classic body" cars like the Lotus 79 and the Wolf and Sennas' McLaren for those who want to do a classic F1 series; I don't think they were ever intended to be raced alongside the F104. Now 3 Racing should have made the FGX the same width as the F104 and the current HPI car, but unfortunately they did'nt. But the visual difference between 180mm to 190mm is really not noticeable; it's not as drastic as the difference between a 180mm F104 and a 200mm F103. That difference anyone can plainly see, and in most cases it does effect performance/handling.

Having said all this; I do predict that in the near future we will see a shift towards ALL F1 cars going the fully independent suspension route of the FGX. It is known that HPI already has a prototype that they have raced overseas. And I have read on these forums that Tamiya is currently in the process of developing a fully independent rear wheel drive F1 car.

I personally am in favor of anything that makes the F1 cars more scale realistic. I know that the folks who favor the solid axle cars like the F104 and F103 are not going to like that, but I sincerely believe that the above scenario that I described is where F1 is going sooner or later. I bet on sooner. Time will tell.
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Old 02-22-2012, 12:47 AM   #4093
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Originally Posted by Genshed62 View Post
Being an F1 noob and from Cypress I am a little surprised at the opinionated posts from folks. Rules?? Yes we need some general rules to keep it under control.

Guys it is a Parking Lot!!!! I know the rules are for Mikes too but gee let's get some new blood in the hobby before the competitive poo heads run then off.

Lets just have some fun. I have been racing on and off since 1985 and I do it to have a good time. After 30 years I still can't drive for ****. That doesn't keep me from dropping tons of money to support a new hobby shop in the area!!

All hail Woody for putting on the Sunday F1 FUNDAY!!

All rule mongers and rule bashers stop smile and at least try to have a good time.

Cheers
Well put, I agree totally

At our local club we just have some basic rules regarding motor types for the 2 classes ( a third class will be a F1 class) and about the accu packs ( max 2s lipo or 6 cell Nimh) We had the same discussion about applying more rules. We decided that if we were to apply more rules, the fun factor will decrease simultaneously

On the other hand its their club and their rules!
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Old 02-22-2012, 02:08 AM   #4094
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2012 BRCA rules run with a choice of 21.5T brushless non blinky or Mardave G2 silver can brushed motor in both classes.
That's handy as my Balistic 17.5 has gone duff, and only have old Nosram 17.5 or a cooked LRP 21.5.
Same with 10.5's, only got old ones or an LRP 13.5.
Must get back in to racing again soon, been over 4 months since my last.
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Old 02-22-2012, 02:58 AM   #4095
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Well at least there are 2 that are 1 color that are pretty easy to do...Lotus and Ferrari

I don't have as much of a problem with the 1 color schemes as the flames and tribals. There are a lot of people out there who just don't have the time or talent to paint up a scale F1 body.
For myself, I really appreciate the time and effort people put into realistic livery. That said, I'm a racer first, so my bodies tend to be painted to visibility. This may not be a huge deal outdoors in the sunlight, but in the evenings or indoors, with artificial lighting, I find it makes a substantial difference.

Rules wise: I think the main problems with the Pan cars are rear tyre width and the 'clunky' front suspension on some of them. (I still think the original Corally F1 front end was a beautiful piece of kit. Dampened, rollbar, the works, while still looking fairly good F1.), so some rules limiting those are probably okay. I would personally try to prevent to limiting it too far, as I do agree with the comments that at the level we're talking about here, it's the driver, not the car.
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