The future of 1/12 scale
11-06-2008, 11:17 AM
#301
Seriously though. The decision has been made for now and it's the current rules. Some are going to try new things in 12th just like people tried LiPo years ago in sedan. Change will be slow and painful because there is no sanctioning body to direct any class changes. In the real racing world, the sanctioning body would be announcing any rules changes for the future of any class.
11-06-2008, 12:28 PM
#302
Seriously though. The decision has been made for now and it's the current rules. Some are going to try new things in 12th just like people tried LiPo years ago in sedan. Change will be slow and painful because there is no sanctioning body to direct any class changes. In the real racing world, the sanctioning body would be announcing any rules changes for the future of any class.
11-06-2008, 12:29 PM
#303
The rules as of now are fine.. lets not push our luck. keep the same size motors, 17.5 is good enough 4 me.. but no more brushed motors in 1/12th
keep it even accross the board.
keep it even accross the board.
11-06-2008, 03:42 PM
#304
Tech Master
Some intresting reading in here guys. However, right now I have 5 x packs of 4200 cells, 3 x chargers for them, 1 x discharger for them. I also run brushed motors and have loads of them all in great condition. Most, if not all, the people I race with are in a similar situation apart from some that run brushless motors. What I gather from this thread is that all of us are now totally out of date with this equipment and that it should all be thrown away, just because SOME people want to run LiPo. Well, sorry, I don't buy into it. Why would I, and the rest of the guys I race with, want to go out and buy new battery packs, chargers and whatever else needed (small motor/esc, etc) when there is nothing wrong with what we have right now? I just don't get it. I understand that some people want to 'move the class forward' but are you really doing that? I really cannot see us in the UK or over in Europe wanting to make such a drastic change to a class that is probably one of the best supported in our country. In fact, reading what has been put on here seems to make life alot more hassle with regards to running LiPo, especially if you have to have your LiPo batteries 'checked' before racing and they can't be over a certain voltage or whatever, that sounds like a bunch of hassle to me for racers and race organizers as well. My 2p worth is leave the class alone. It's done fine over the last 25+ years and it will continue to do so in the future. Cheers!!
11-06-2008, 04:04 PM
#305
Wingman,
Adding 3.7V LiPO to 1:12 racing will not really affect 1:12 racing
The battery will fit in the same in cars. If racers are inclined to keep using NiMH, I do not see a problem. Either allow the the LiPO guys to motor up a level, or let let the NiMH guys use 3-cell packs so the voltages are near the same like in Sedan.
If 1:12 were to go to 3.7V / 3-cell I could equalized two packs at the same time on my Novak Smart Tray instead of just one 4-cell pack. I could save $10 a pack because one less cell. I can keep using my chargers and I can keep using my cars.
Adding 3.7V LiPO to 1:12 racing will not really affect 1:12 racing
The battery will fit in the same in cars. If racers are inclined to keep using NiMH, I do not see a problem. Either allow the the LiPO guys to motor up a level, or let let the NiMH guys use 3-cell packs so the voltages are near the same like in Sedan.
If 1:12 were to go to 3.7V / 3-cell I could equalized two packs at the same time on my Novak Smart Tray instead of just one 4-cell pack. I could save $10 a pack because one less cell. I can keep using my chargers and I can keep using my cars.
11-06-2008, 04:05 PM
#306
Some intresting reading in here guys. However, right now I have 5 x packs of 4200 cells, 3 x chargers for them, 1 x discharger for them. I also run brushed motors and have loads of them all in great condition. Most, if not all, the people I race with are in a similar situation apart from some that run brushless motors. What I gather from this thread is that all of us are now totally out of date with this equipment and that it should all be thrown away, just because SOME people want to run LiPo. Well, sorry, I don't buy into it. Why would I, and the rest of the guys I race with, want to go out and buy new battery packs, chargers and whatever else needed (small motor/esc, etc) when there is nothing wrong with what we have right now? I just don't get it. I understand that some people want to 'move the class forward' but are you really doing that? I really cannot see us in the UK or over in Europe wanting to make such a drastic change to a class that is probably one of the best supported in our country. In fact, reading what has been put on here seems to make life alot more hassle with regards to running LiPo, especially if you have to have your LiPo batteries 'checked' before racing and they can't be over a certain voltage or whatever, that sounds like a bunch of hassle to me for racers and race organizers as well. My 2p worth is leave the class alone. It's done fine over the last 25+ years and it will continue to do so in the future. Cheers!!
All they're saying is that change is inevitable, and whereas the system may not be broken right now, eventually it may be, so let's do some R&D so we're out ahead of the curve. It's better to have done some thinking about future issues rather than get caught with one's pants down at some point.
Don't worry, nobody's going to come and take your toys away. If the discussion doesn't interest you then move on.
11-06-2008, 04:05 PM
#307
Again...we are talking about the future of the class not the now of the class. In the years to come Nickel based batteries are going to become more difficult to get. Rather then sit on our hands and wait until we can't get equipment anymore, some of us are looking to be more proactive so everyone can be ready when the change does come. NiMh is allready starting to become less available...I had 2 of my racers this past week try and get batteries for their TC cars (we don't allow LiPo yet due to insurance) from their usual sources and could not because those vendors had switched mostly over to LiPo allready.
Something will need to be done eventually...the question is will we be ready for it and have allready planned for it...or will we be stuck making last minute changes that may hurt the class rather then help.
Something will need to be done eventually...the question is will we be ready for it and have allready planned for it...or will we be stuck making last minute changes that may hurt the class rather then help.
11-06-2008, 04:21 PM
#308
Li-Po's should ONLY be charged at 1 c.... nothing more.
charge @ 5400 @ 5.4A
3800 @ 3.4A
and only as the # of cells in the pack.
i quit racing go karts because it was too easy to get hurt.
i dont want any one to set my favorite track on fire trying to go two thousanths faster, DONT BE A FOOL>>> DONT ABUSE LIPOS> BE RESPONSIBLE>>> LIPO WARMERS SHOULD BE ILLEGAL !....
everyone seems to think they r going to win by charging them faster or overcharging them.. dont be a fool.. do it right and they will last a llllooooonnnnngggg time. its not that important to do all that .. dont risk it, its not worth it.
charge @ 5400 @ 5.4A
3800 @ 3.4A
and only as the # of cells in the pack.
i quit racing go karts because it was too easy to get hurt.
i dont want any one to set my favorite track on fire trying to go two thousanths faster, DONT BE A FOOL>>> DONT ABUSE LIPOS> BE RESPONSIBLE>>> LIPO WARMERS SHOULD BE ILLEGAL !....
everyone seems to think they r going to win by charging them faster or overcharging them.. dont be a fool.. do it right and they will last a llllooooonnnnngggg time. its not that important to do all that .. dont risk it, its not worth it.
11-06-2008, 10:34 PM
#309
Tech Fanatic
There are less than a couple of handfuls of drivers who want to do as you are all suggesting. That's hardly moving things towards the future.
I wish you guys would stop trying to convert me to your religion, and make some universal Rules we can all use to try out your ideas. I'll start with one that, for us in Europe, is related to safety and, for us, cannot be changed.
Rule 1 - Battery voltage not to exceed 4.8v.
Over to you, but, if you can't agree a set of Rules, then please stop telling me it is the future of 12th Scale. At the moment, it isn't.
I wish you guys would stop trying to convert me to your religion, and make some universal Rules we can all use to try out your ideas. I'll start with one that, for us in Europe, is related to safety and, for us, cannot be changed.
Rule 1 - Battery voltage not to exceed 4.8v.
Over to you, but, if you can't agree a set of Rules, then please stop telling me it is the future of 12th Scale. At the moment, it isn't.
11-06-2008, 11:16 PM
#310
There is still testing to be done so no 1 set of rules can be made yet. When more people try the different ideas out a concensus can be formed on which of the ideas proposed will be best for the class.
11-07-2008, 08:49 AM
#311
I thought this was the 'try it" 1/12 thread
I thought this was the 'try it" 1/12 thread. Not the my rules are better then your rules so I am cramming them down your throat thread.
Seriously - try EVERY thing - say what works and why and also what doesn't work. Reality says that NiMh will be hard to get - people are already having trouble in some places. Lets just try stuff and see how it works.
I would like to have some options tested - so when the day comes that I can't buy NiMh batteries, I wouldn't be forced to race touring car - cause its the only non 1/18 class left for indoors.
Seriously - try EVERY thing - say what works and why and also what doesn't work. Reality says that NiMh will be hard to get - people are already having trouble in some places. Lets just try stuff and see how it works.
I would like to have some options tested - so when the day comes that I can't buy NiMh batteries, I wouldn't be forced to race touring car - cause its the only non 1/18 class left for indoors.
Last edited by rsperson; 11-07-2008 at 05:06 PM.
11-07-2008, 11:06 AM
#312
There are less than a couple of handfuls of drivers who want to do as you are all suggesting. That's hardly moving things towards the future.
I wish you guys would stop trying to convert me to your religion, and make some universal Rules we can all use to try out your ideas. I'll start with one that, for us in Europe, is related to safety and, for us, cannot be changed.
Rule 1 - Battery voltage not to exceed 4.8v.
Over to you, but, if you can't agree a set of Rules, then please stop telling me it is the future of 12th Scale. At the moment, it isn't.
I wish you guys would stop trying to convert me to your religion, and make some universal Rules we can all use to try out your ideas. I'll start with one that, for us in Europe, is related to safety and, for us, cannot be changed.
Rule 1 - Battery voltage not to exceed 4.8v.
Over to you, but, if you can't agree a set of Rules, then please stop telling me it is the future of 12th Scale. At the moment, it isn't.
No need to completely tear up the rules yet as far as I'm concerned. Offering an option for club racing is fine for now.
11-07-2008, 11:49 AM
#313
Tech Fanatic
My problem is that those responses pretty much guarantee that there will not be a future in the way you'd want. I hope you find what you're looking for, but wishing it so amongst a few people isn't as powerful as setting it out for many to join in. Good luck.
11-07-2008, 03:21 PM
#314
Update...
Hey guys, I raced last week with a Single-cell Lipo with a 19T motor. Here were my findings (posted on our LHS's forum)
Here's the link to the original context (scroll to bottom): LINK
...I found the optimal setup for my Single Cell Lipo car. I switched to white rears, and softer-than-usual pinks on the front, and I got crazy traction (the car is 7 ounces lighter than a Nimh one). I Also found the right gear ratio, switched to a 88spur and 40 pinion, got decent straightaway speeds and still had a little grunt to get going. I felt that the car was well balanced, and handled very well.
However, I found that running with low capacity (2800mah) left me with limited run time and performance. I found that my lap times gradually got slower and slower, as the battery went from 4.2v to 3.0v. I found that a 7-8 minute run would use 2500mah, which is pretty much all the capacity in my 2800 pack. I believe that increasing capacity with 2 additional cells (up to 4200mah) would make the pack last much better, and voltage loss would be minimized. If i were to have run brushless, I'm sure the battery would have run longer, due to its efficiency.
Comparing My lap times to the average of the other lap times, I was slower (obviously). I found that I was about 2.25 seconds slower per lap than the others consistently. This is due to two things: 1. I'm not as good a driver, and 2. My car was a touch slower. My consistency ( take your fastest lap and subtract Avg. lap time) was about 1.25 seconds, compare that to the average of the others, 0.60 seconds. Its evident I haven't been driving these cars for years, so i wasn't as accurate a driver. Perhaps advantages of the lighter weight could have been utilized by others more efficiently.
I cant help but wonder what would have happened if I gave my car to one of the other drivers: how far behind would the car then be from 4 Cell? we can say it would definatly be less than 2 seconds, maybe 1? More testing would be the way to go. A brushless motor or good 19t would have given a little more speed/acceleration, as the 19t motor I used was kindof weak.
In conclusion, I was able to run Single Cell Lipo with you guys today, and it looks promising. A larger battery, and a slightly faster motor should bring this class up to speed.
Cheers!
However, I found that running with low capacity (2800mah) left me with limited run time and performance. I found that my lap times gradually got slower and slower, as the battery went from 4.2v to 3.0v. I found that a 7-8 minute run would use 2500mah, which is pretty much all the capacity in my 2800 pack. I believe that increasing capacity with 2 additional cells (up to 4200mah) would make the pack last much better, and voltage loss would be minimized. If i were to have run brushless, I'm sure the battery would have run longer, due to its efficiency.
Comparing My lap times to the average of the other lap times, I was slower (obviously). I found that I was about 2.25 seconds slower per lap than the others consistently. This is due to two things: 1. I'm not as good a driver, and 2. My car was a touch slower. My consistency ( take your fastest lap and subtract Avg. lap time) was about 1.25 seconds, compare that to the average of the others, 0.60 seconds. Its evident I haven't been driving these cars for years, so i wasn't as accurate a driver. Perhaps advantages of the lighter weight could have been utilized by others more efficiently.
I cant help but wonder what would have happened if I gave my car to one of the other drivers: how far behind would the car then be from 4 Cell? we can say it would definatly be less than 2 seconds, maybe 1? More testing would be the way to go. A brushless motor or good 19t would have given a little more speed/acceleration, as the 19t motor I used was kindof weak.
In conclusion, I was able to run Single Cell Lipo with you guys today, and it looks promising. A larger battery, and a slightly faster motor should bring this class up to speed.
Cheers!
11-07-2008, 03:43 PM
#315
Provissional Rules would be nice.
I would like to see ROAR lock down the Max Dimension of the any NON-NiMH batteries for 1:12 to be:
92x47x23mm (Pack to Fit all linked and Oval Cars with 4-cell cutouts.)
and
70x47x30mm (Pack to Fit Current T-Plate Cars*)
Both Packs would have nearly the same volume so Capacity Limits would be eqaul.
The second Rule I would like to see in MAX voltage to be 4.8V so not to speed up the class using the current motors. Alowing higher voltage packs would mean MORE RULES AND MORE CHANGES and MORE MONEY to conform to the changes.
*Bottom Note*
The 70mm long pack is the same size as half the saddle used in Touring and Off-Road like the original E4 and B44.
Example TeamCheckPoint.
This battery pack size would not require re-tooling or production of a Niche items. In the Future, Linked cars could develop Asymetrical layouts similar to Sedans with the Battery on one side and the Electronics on the other to take advantage of the more compact size. For the Mean Time, Both Pack Options of the 92mm long and the 70mm pack would be a direct drop-in battery for majority of 1:12 cars.
*End*
I would like to see ROAR lock down the Max Dimension of the any NON-NiMH batteries for 1:12 to be:
92x47x23mm (Pack to Fit all linked and Oval Cars with 4-cell cutouts.)
and
70x47x30mm (Pack to Fit Current T-Plate Cars*)
Both Packs would have nearly the same volume so Capacity Limits would be eqaul.
The second Rule I would like to see in MAX voltage to be 4.8V so not to speed up the class using the current motors. Alowing higher voltage packs would mean MORE RULES AND MORE CHANGES and MORE MONEY to conform to the changes.
*Bottom Note*
The 70mm long pack is the same size as half the saddle used in Touring and Off-Road like the original E4 and B44.
Example TeamCheckPoint.
This battery pack size would not require re-tooling or production of a Niche items. In the Future, Linked cars could develop Asymetrical layouts similar to Sedans with the Battery on one side and the Electronics on the other to take advantage of the more compact size. For the Mean Time, Both Pack Options of the 92mm long and the 70mm pack would be a direct drop-in battery for majority of 1:12 cars.
*End*