The future of 1/12 scale
12-20-2008, 10:04 AM
#721
It's pretty easy to blame the sponsored racers in stock for all the new people that quit. I just don't buy it though. It's true that there were less full ride stock guys back in the day but they were there.
Today, the only problem I have with a lot of the "fast" guys is the fact that they have no patience for the new racers. It's one turn and they're in the wall. The old 3 turn rule has become the this turn rule. It's even happening at club races.
In order to grow 12th in the US we need to have a stock class that makes sense for new racers. Asking the new guys to run a car that's going as fast as mod was 10 years ago is a tall order. So, stock needs to get slower. Wether that's a higher wind motor or lower voltage is up for debate but that's what I think needs to happen.
Problem is that when you tell a stock racer that you want to slow the stock cars down you get a bunch of "wanna go fast" remarks. Tell them to run a faster class and you'll get 10 other lame excuses. Maybe these go fast stock guys need to give a little and run a slower stock class until we get enough racers to have a 13.5 or mod class at the club level. My guess is that it's not gonna happen.
Today, the only problem I have with a lot of the "fast" guys is the fact that they have no patience for the new racers. It's one turn and they're in the wall. The old 3 turn rule has become the this turn rule. It's even happening at club races.
In order to grow 12th in the US we need to have a stock class that makes sense for new racers. Asking the new guys to run a car that's going as fast as mod was 10 years ago is a tall order. So, stock needs to get slower. Wether that's a higher wind motor or lower voltage is up for debate but that's what I think needs to happen.
Problem is that when you tell a stock racer that you want to slow the stock cars down you get a bunch of "wanna go fast" remarks. Tell them to run a faster class and you'll get 10 other lame excuses. Maybe these go fast stock guys need to give a little and run a slower stock class until we get enough racers to have a 13.5 or mod class at the club level. My guess is that it's not gonna happen.
12-20-2008, 10:12 AM
#722
there were a few guys here that when you came up to pass them they would try to race you and usually cause an incident. even if they were a few laps down. Usually I would just have to wait for the most opritune time to make a safe pass and run and hide befor i got corner dived. But then again , not many ppl showed up due to the snow we had (almost a foot) . fred is right .. the 17.5 is too fast for the newer guys ,, and i hate to say it this way but , isnt much fun for me.
12-20-2008, 03:32 PM
#723
Tech Master
Yeah, MUDVAYNE, thanks for that although it was n't complete BS at all. What I put in that post was actually completely true. Because of the limited speed from a stock motor, all the guys were trying other means of making the motor go quickly, hence new cells all the time, motor brushes and in the end, the club bought a motor can zapper that all the stock guys used all the time. It only took one of the guys to start this cycle, and all the others then had to follow suit in order to 'keep up with the Jones', as it were. In the end, it was decided that the standard bushes in the stock motors could be replaced with ballraces, just so that there was one less thing to do between heats. Don't tell me that's all BS pal, you may do things differantly at your club, but that was what the guys were doing at mine, ok?
12-20-2008, 04:17 PM
#724
Yeah, MUDVAYNE, thanks for that although it was n't complete BS at all. What I put in that post was actually completely true. Because of the limited speed from a stock motor, all the guys were trying other means of making the motor go quickly, hence new cells all the time, motor brushes and in the end, the club bought a motor can zapper that all the stock guys used all the time. It only took one of the guys to start this cycle, and all the others then had to follow suit in order to 'keep up with the Jones', as it were. In the end, it was decided that the standard bushes in the stock motors could be replaced with ballraces, just so that there was one less thing to do between heats. Don't tell me that's all BS pal, you may do things differantly at your club, but that was what the guys were doing at mine, ok?
The only true stock class is spec silver can, its cheap and its fun(apparently).
Mod racing rules and only 8 hours till the next race..
12-20-2008, 06:37 PM
#725
I find I have the most trouble with people that are decently good (consistent) drivers but are off the pace by a fair margin. I find these drivers the hardest to pass because they are holding a good line (the line I want), but they're just going a little slower. This makes it almost necessary for them to pull over or go wide (purposefully) in order to make a clean pass.
12-20-2008, 08:54 PM
#726
I don't want to lump myself in with the "fast" guys because I've gotten worked plenty of times. But one thing I need to lay down is the fact that patience should not be an issue with the fast guys. At the last two club races, running stock, the differential in lap times is VERY significant. The majority of my times were right around 9.9-10.2 and the 2-5th place group was in the 10.4-10.8 range. That much difference can be dealt with fairly well. The issue is the other 5 in the lower half of the main were averaging 11.5-12+. Now with the differences in lap times of 2 seconds or more (on clean laps) the closing speed is HUGE! Three corners almost isn't even an option because you come up on someone so fast you can't hardly see them!
I find I have the most trouble with people that are decently good (consistent) drivers but are off the pace by a fair margin. I find these drivers the hardest to pass because they are holding a good line (the line I want), but they're just going a little slower. This makes it almost necessary for them to pull over or go wide (purposefully) in order to make a clean pass.
I find I have the most trouble with people that are decently good (consistent) drivers but are off the pace by a fair margin. I find these drivers the hardest to pass because they are holding a good line (the line I want), but they're just going a little slower. This makes it almost necessary for them to pull over or go wide (purposefully) in order to make a clean pass.
Problem is that its those guys that get discouraged and leave the class/hobby because all thay do is spend time pulling over for you to pass every couple of laps. At a big event sure, let the leaders by, but at the club level if your that good you should be able to find a clean spot to pass. And to quite blunt if you have to punt a slower driver just so you can win a bowling trophy, well your missing what the hobby is all about at the local level.
12-21-2008, 12:25 AM
#727
Tech Master
Hi Chris. How many guys do you have racing on an average meeting? Over the last couple of winter season's, we have had around 10-12 1/12th guys regulary turn up. The ability level runs between someone who is in the top 10 in the country, right down to one of the guy's grandson, who is 'learning the ropes', so to speak. What we try to do is split the guys between 2 heats so that the faster guys don't have to worry about lapping slower guys too much, whilst the other guys have fun between themselves in their own heat. That's about the fairest way we can run the meetings and hopefully everybody gets a good day's racing out of it.
12-21-2008, 11:50 AM
#728
Chris- Trust me, winning a bowling trophy is the last thing on my mind on club nights. I just like to be able to run a clean race and tune and tweak on my setup so I can compete on our bigger Sunday races in Super Stock. Almost every single race I find myself apologizing to someone on the stand because I "ran them over." But again, its never intentional. Almost always its just the differential in speed and lines. When approaching someone I may think I have a corner or three before I catch someone and all of a sudden, I've plowed right through them a corner early because they slowed much more than I expected. All I can do then is apologize.
12-21-2008, 12:21 PM
#729
I want everyone to know that Im gettins sick of trying to run what every one else thinks i should run... truth is there needs to be an entry class that is slower than the race cars . but then again.. no one wants a slow race car . So lets stop regulating the crap out of everything and get back to racing .
if u want an entry level make it gt3 like TCS races. byt even then u get cherry pickers for what should be an entry level race. Just proves one thing and one thing only . NO ONE WANTS TO BE TOLD WHAT TO RUN!
17.5 is fast but too slow to be any real fun for someone thats been racing for 30 years . then again theres aonly a handfull of guys that can hold that candle . and where do they all race .. in different places , thats right . So we all need to run one class and figure that its more fun with more ppl..
TRANS AM is so cool i cant stand it. But its so slow anyone can be competitive. Maybe ive just been doing that too long. Not having to qualify to be in the A means nothing . winning means nothing...
Racing door to door sounds like fun and 20 cars on the track at once is sounding like a great time ! Since theres no problem with run time there maybe we could even make 10 min races! 12 scale doesnt need a slower class. I think it is more a pinacle than an entry level . If you never had a car b4 dont get a 12th scale car . get a slash and beat that to death b4 u get a 12th car. Leave the formula's to us. stock in t/c is a joke too.. I dont think holding it floored and just steering is good racing either. Thats pretty much why nascar sucks. 13.5 isnt much fun as 10.5 in tc but roar killed that one for us too. getting pissed about the diversity. What ever happened to everyone running one class and was happy to do it. now its so sparse its stupid!
if u want an entry level make it gt3 like TCS races. byt even then u get cherry pickers for what should be an entry level race. Just proves one thing and one thing only . NO ONE WANTS TO BE TOLD WHAT TO RUN!
17.5 is fast but too slow to be any real fun for someone thats been racing for 30 years . then again theres aonly a handfull of guys that can hold that candle . and where do they all race .. in different places , thats right . So we all need to run one class and figure that its more fun with more ppl..
TRANS AM is so cool i cant stand it. But its so slow anyone can be competitive. Maybe ive just been doing that too long. Not having to qualify to be in the A means nothing . winning means nothing...
Racing door to door sounds like fun and 20 cars on the track at once is sounding like a great time ! Since theres no problem with run time there maybe we could even make 10 min races! 12 scale doesnt need a slower class. I think it is more a pinacle than an entry level . If you never had a car b4 dont get a 12th scale car . get a slash and beat that to death b4 u get a 12th car. Leave the formula's to us. stock in t/c is a joke too.. I dont think holding it floored and just steering is good racing either. Thats pretty much why nascar sucks. 13.5 isnt much fun as 10.5 in tc but roar killed that one for us too. getting pissed about the diversity. What ever happened to everyone running one class and was happy to do it. now its so sparse its stupid!
12-21-2008, 01:00 PM
#730
Hi Chris. How many guys do you have racing on an average meeting? Over the last couple of winter season's, we have had around 10-12 1/12th guys regulary turn up. The ability level runs between someone who is in the top 10 in the country, right down to one of the guy's grandson, who is 'learning the ropes', so to speak. What we try to do is split the guys between 2 heats so that the faster guys don't have to worry about lapping slower guys too much, whilst the other guys have fun between themselves in their own heat. That's about the fairest way we can run the meetings and hopefully everybody gets a good day's racing out of it.
And there were only 4 stock and 4-5 mod 1/12 drivers. We have no(zero) on-road racing here
. Well almost, the only on-road action in town is some p-lot racing hosted by the local hobbytown owner, but the asphalt is so rough we've abandoned any pancar racing(1/12 or 1/10) and only run TC's and trucks. Its sad that we have a sm on-road track but due to lack of racers and ownership issues their was only one race on that track back in May. Due to the great weather here off-road is king(home of the cactus classic and nitro pit) and on-road is mostly a memory.
12-21-2008, 01:31 PM
#731
Actualy I ran my 1/12 for the first time all yr two weeks ago and I had to travel to a carpet track in another town And there were only 4 stock and 4-5 mod 1/12 drivers. We have no(zero) on-road racing here. Well almost, the only on-road action in town is some p-lot racing hosted by the local hobbytown owner, but the asphalt is so rough we've abandoned any pancar racing(1/12 or 1/10) and only run TC's and trucks. Its sad that we have a sm on-road track but due to lack of racers and ownership issues their was only one race on that track back in May. Due to the great weather here off-road is king(home of the cactus classic and nitro pit) and on-road is mostly a memory.
And there were only 4 stock and 4-5 mod 1/12 drivers. We have no(zero) on-road racing here. Well almost, the only on-road action in town is some p-lot racing hosted by the local hobbytown owner, but the asphalt is so rough we've abandoned any pancar racing(1/12 or 1/10) and only run TC's and trucks. Its sad that we have a sm on-road track but due to lack of racers and ownership issues their was only one race on that track back in May. Due to the great weather here off-road is king(home of the cactus classic and nitro pit) and on-road is mostly a memory.
12-21-2008, 02:42 PM
#732
Your correct HT in Gilbert, but a couple of yrs ago Dennis moved to the other end of the strip center. His aggrement with the land owner requires him to race in front of the store and the asphalt there is horrible. Prior to the move the asphalt we ran on was smooth enough for pancar use
.And yes SRS still has the sm paved track between the store and huge off-road area, that is the track that has had one race day on it; well to be fair there was a couple of club races earier in the yr but either I could'nt make it or no 1/12's made it out. There is some some hope for '09 as the store/tracks changed ownership two months ago and we hope to run on-road on the 9th of Jan, but due to the long layoff most of the racers have switched to off-road in order to do any racing so its going to be a battle to get more than 10 guys out and that number will be dominated by TC racers.
12-21-2008, 03:33 PM
#733
Ok, some say that a 13.5/1 cell is the same as 17.5/4 cell. Others disagree and say its slower. I personally dont think your gonna find a lipo powered car the exact same as a 4cell round cell, rather it be 1 cell or 2.
Some say leave 1/12 alone, its not broke.
Well, I have tried to race a 1/12 for about 1.5 months now. started with bushed/4cell. I couldnt get any hp out of it after 2 mins. I had a couple of fast guys help me in the motor department. Got it build the right way and then it only ran like that for a practice and 2 rounds of quilifying. Im not gonna be building motors all the time. In steps brushless, Ok I know this will run good. Now to get cells, ha, haha, ya, horrior storys there. 4200's...what is that about? I personlly have gone therw more of those cells then all the cells ive ever had !! Brand new 5300 crap out of the package ??? Come on. The guys that buy round cells with out a problem.......please post where you get them from. Just about everything around here is dead or gonna be in very short order. It kinda seem as though it is broken if you ask me.
As much as i hate to say it, this might need a new class. Not sure what you could call it but how about 13.5/1 cell but as light as you can get it. Take a motor/speedo, pack, servo and rx, get the weight total and call that min. You would never get to min weight so Im sure all the super light (read: fragile) cars will come out but by then I bet most would be able to get the car to work just as well as 17.5/ 4 cell we have now but, will break less, hardley wear tires (read: race hight tires all the time ) and be easyer to drive. Then just fine out what weight would be practical in that range and call it home ??? Then after its all figured out I bet the two could be competitive and run in the same class?
Just spit balling here.
DK
Some say leave 1/12 alone, its not broke.
Well, I have tried to race a 1/12 for about 1.5 months now. started with bushed/4cell. I couldnt get any hp out of it after 2 mins. I had a couple of fast guys help me in the motor department. Got it build the right way and then it only ran like that for a practice and 2 rounds of quilifying. Im not gonna be building motors all the time. In steps brushless, Ok I know this will run good. Now to get cells, ha, haha, ya, horrior storys there. 4200's...what is that about? I personlly have gone therw more of those cells then all the cells ive ever had !! Brand new 5300 crap out of the package ??? Come on. The guys that buy round cells with out a problem.......please post where you get them from. Just about everything around here is dead or gonna be in very short order. It kinda seem as though it is broken if you ask me.
As much as i hate to say it, this might need a new class. Not sure what you could call it but how about 13.5/1 cell but as light as you can get it. Take a motor/speedo, pack, servo and rx, get the weight total and call that min. You would never get to min weight so Im sure all the super light (read: fragile) cars will come out but by then I bet most would be able to get the car to work just as well as 17.5/ 4 cell we have now but, will break less, hardley wear tires (read: race hight tires all the time ) and be easyer to drive. Then just fine out what weight would be practical in that range and call it home ??? Then after its all figured out I bet the two could be competitive and run in the same class?
Just spit balling here.
DK
12-21-2008, 05:24 PM
#734
Your correct HT in Gilbert, but a couple of yrs ago Dennis moved to the other end of the strip center. His aggrement with the land owner requires him to race in front of the store and the asphalt there is horrible. Prior to the move the asphalt we ran on was smooth enough for pancar use.And yes SRS still has the sm paved track between the store and huge off-road area, that is the track that has had one race day on it; well to be fair there was a couple of club races earier in the yr but either I could'nt make it or no 1/12's made it out. There is some some hope for '09 as the store/tracks changed ownership two months ago and we hope to run on-road on the 9th of Jan, but due to the long layoff most of the racers have switched to off-road in order to do any racing so its going to be a battle to get more than 10 guys out and that number will be dominated by TC racers.
12-21-2008, 05:48 PM
#735
I propose this to be the rules for 2010.
Motor Classes:
Stock 17.5 / 27T
Super Stock 13.5T
Modified
Min Weight 794g
Same chassis rules for lenght width, spoilers, wheels ect.
Battery Choices
3-Cell Maximum NiMH Roar Approve cells
3.7V LiPO Type Flat (Linked Chassis, pack size from 7.4V classes shortened to fit 4-cell length battery cutouts.)
92.4mm x 47mm x 25.1mm MAX
3.7V LiPO Type Single Brick (T-Plate Chassis, Pack Dimension from Roar 2009 Rules)
71mm x 48mm x 32mm MAX
Motor Classes:
Stock 17.5 / 27T
Super Stock 13.5T
Modified
Min Weight 794g
Same chassis rules for lenght width, spoilers, wheels ect.
Battery Choices
3-Cell Maximum NiMH Roar Approve cells
3.7V LiPO Type Flat (Linked Chassis, pack size from 7.4V classes shortened to fit 4-cell length battery cutouts.)
92.4mm x 47mm x 25.1mm MAX
3.7V LiPO Type Single Brick (T-Plate Chassis, Pack Dimension from Roar 2009 Rules)
71mm x 48mm x 32mm MAX
Last edited by trailranger; 12-22-2008 at 10:32 AM.