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Old 10-14-2008, 12:27 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by SlowerOne View Post
Isn't that called Pro-10, and don't we already have a class for the LMP cars? If you want to run LMP, get a class for it. This class if for GT cars, so it's not likely that we are going to let LMP in!

Both classes can run alongside each other, and that would be a good way to fill the meetings and make them viable.
I have noticed a lot of guys complaining about the bodies and wanting to run lipo and low turn motors. If that's the case WGT is not the class for you Pro10 is. WGT is a slower class with street style bodies. Don't get me wrong I like the new LMP body that PF put out but I'm not real big on a bunch of doorstops running around a track. Just my thoughts.
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Old 10-14-2008, 01:27 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by CypressMidWest View Post
Single cell lipo is fine if that's the direction 12th scale takes. A smaller motor is the WORST idea EVER. Keep some cross class compatibility, or you end up with a formula that no one wants because they have to have a CLASS SPECIFIC MOTOR. Hell if you run 17.5, you can still run that in any other 1/10th class. A 380 motor puts you squarely in Micro territory, and there's not enough crossover to support the class that way.
I don't think that argument holds water.

You can't use the fact that you might have 1s lipos laying around from your 12th, because at this moment only the premium brand even has one in development. It is a long, long way from being the standard that racers are invested in. Both classes will have their technological makeup decided mutually, but that moment is still in the future.

Imagine the pan classes go with 1s lipo. You'd need two $100 lipos, plus 2 receiver 2s $25 lipos for every pan class. That equipment would only work in pan cars.

Imagine the pan classes go with a smaller motor. You'd need one $70 motor for every pan class.

Remind me again where this argument that 1s lipo is the superior solution comes from?

-Adam
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Old 10-14-2008, 01:53 PM   #123
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Remind me again where this argument that 1s lipo is the superior solution comes from?

-Adam
Also, your receiver and servo are gonna LOVE 3.5 - 3.7 volts...
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Old 10-14-2008, 02:23 PM   #124
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I have noticed a lot of guys complaining about the bodies and wanting to run lipo and low turn motors. If that's the case WGT is not the class for you Pro10 is. WGT is a slower class with street style bodies. Don't get me wrong I like the new LMP body that PF put out but I'm not real big on a bunch of doorstops running around a track. Just my thoughts.
There is no Pro10 class. It's a dead class for ROAR because it was too fast.

WGT is the new PRO10 and that's why all of the big races are running that class.
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Old 10-14-2008, 02:41 PM   #125
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On the whole LiPo thing, I've run both single cell and 2 cell in 12th. I can say from running that single cell will do 2 things for a 4 cell class. But, I don't think that single cell LiPo is the savior that some are expecting it to be.

The up side of single cell is that it slows the classes down so that new racers can run stock. It also slows mod down to a point where it's fun again and 13.5 is a reasonable speed for the guys that don't want to go slow.

The only real problem with single cell is that it needs a receiver pack or voltage booster. The voltage booster isn't a difficult circuit to design so that will probably be the way to go.

The plus side of 2 cell is that no receiver pack is needed.

Problems I saw with 2 cell in a 4 cell car were low capacity, too much speed, and the batteries couldn't handle the current of anything but stock and 13.5. 2 cell and a 21.5 motor is probably too fast for a beginner and we need new racers.
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Old 10-14-2008, 07:55 PM   #126
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all things considered, i think i read it somewhere recently, spec racing is responsible for killing more classes in rc racing than rainouts.
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Old 10-14-2008, 09:54 PM   #127
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all things considered, i think i read it somewhere recently, spec racing is responsible for killing more classes in rc racing than rainouts.
Nah.

Spec racing works where the racers have fun. It's no better or worse than any other class. What tends to happen (as I've viewed it) people pick the cheapest piece of crap car they can find, Under the guise of cheap racing. Then they struggle with it and give up in disgust, because it handles like a $49 car... AND because it's a spec class, you can't even fix it, and have to "enjoy yourself" with an ill-handling car that you're note even proud of.

Also with rare exceptions companys introduce cars that are claimed to be the ultimate spec car, the cheapest racing you've ever done. Then they throw a national event for it... and nobody comes. WHY is that you ask? let me tell ya. You can't advertise the cheapest racing on earth, and then expect folks to fork out a few grand to spend the week half way across the country racing other folks with crappy cars....

Spec racing is a concept. There really is no "blanket" that covers everybody and will make everybody happy, it can't and won't happen. You have to look at it, take ideas from it and mold it to fit your group.

I think most of us will agree that, for the most part, we don't particularly care about what some club 1/2 way around the world does. We care about getting people out in our area, and doing our part where we can.

Spec racing is a concept, make it work for you.
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Old 10-14-2008, 10:10 PM   #128
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Pro 10 car (yes world GT not a good name but it is a Pro 10 car. Putting a GT body on a TC it still a TC).

Get the fact straight! The class did not die because it was too fast. It slowed down because of company stop supporting it!!!!! What they want is to push TC. TC needs more parts to run and more part to sell. Pro 10 never need all the hope up that TC need.

You do not need to buy a bunch of a-arms to replace when you brush the wall. Then you have the new hop up that come out a week later that is a must have, New block, light drive shafts, pulleys, new a-arms. Then you have a new car ever 6 mon.

Then you get some saying ďitís a motor and battery warĒ. It 100 times more imports in TC then in Pro 10 to have a new motor and battery. In Pro 10 you do not need the best motor or battery. I keeping up with year old batters when ever oneís running new Lipoís and 4 cells.

The part most needed for the car is bodies and tires.

If you like AE or Trinity (before they buy TRC) you did not make to much money off cars. You sell one to someone and it last a long time. You might need a new T-plate or diff parts but not like the money pit that TC are.

Jaco, TRC, protoform or Bolink: where doing well on the most use parts on a Pro 10.

2nd
Then it did not help the roar change the rules form you had to run one class per car at Natís. So if you want more track time you had to run Pro 10, 1/12th and TC. When they took that rule out you saw a drop in Pro 10 and 1/12th. Guess what, after that you see a lot more doing the stock and 19t TC or 19t and Mod TC.

Some will say the drop it from the Natís because no one signs up.

Yes the last year they ran on carpets they did not get that many but that was for MOD. Where you look at Natís you see stock and 19t/spec mod are bigger classes. So if it would have stay as a stock or 19t class it would have grown. This one thing that made the class slowed down.

Last it is a pro 10 class; GT is Gas truck in the RC. One guy come up to my as me about the car we running I said it a Pro 10 and the other on the track was a world GT car. His came back I though GT was a Gas Truck.
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Old 10-14-2008, 10:26 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by adamge View Post
I don't think that argument holds water.

You can't use the fact that you might have 1s lipos laying around from your 12th, because at this moment only the premium brand even has one in development. It is a long, long way from being the standard that racers are invested in. Both classes will have their technological makeup decided mutually, but that moment is still in the future.

Imagine the pan classes go with 1s lipo. You'd need two $100 lipos, plus 2 receiver 2s $25 lipos for every pan class. That equipment would only work in pan cars.

Imagine the pan classes go with a smaller motor. You'd need one $70 motor for every pan class.

Remind me again where this argument that 1s lipo is the superior solution comes from?

-Adam
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Originally Posted by Fred_B View Post
There is no Pro10 class. It's a dead class for ROAR because it was too fast.

WGT is the new PRO10 and that's why all of the big races are running that class.
There you have the reason why we should not run 2S LiPo. For safety and cost reasons the cars are too fast, 1S LiPo is all that can be afforded if the Sport is to grow.

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Originally Posted by Taz_S View Post
Pro 10 car (yes world GT not a good name but it is a Pro 10 car. Putting a GT body on a TC it still a TC).

Get the fact straight! The class did not die because it was too fast. It slowed down because of company stop supporting it!!!!! .
If we want to talk about getting facts straight, the let's do that. As Chairman of the IFMAR Electric Section at the time, I was in the meeting...

Pro10 died when it was removed as an IFMAR class for the 2000 IFMAR Worlds. The Blocs wanted a TC event, and it was agreed there was not room for a Worlds with three classes. The consensus was that 12th had a future, but that Pro10 was too fast, people were not buying the cars because they were difficult to drive and expensive to maintain (remember that the IFMAR and ROAR class was four minutes, not five or eight - these cars were ballistic!) and that getting a viable number of drivers to participate was unlikely. In order to accomodate TC, Pro10 was dropped. Within a year, people moved to 12th and TC. Manufacturers never stopped supporting it - a 10L3 has been for sale ever since, and tyres and bodies too.

Please, don't guess if you don't know. Misleading people is bad.

If you want to revive the Pro10 class, then get some Rules for it. WorldGT is for GT cars using 17.5 and 13.5 motors and four cells. Here in the UK we are trying to get Rules in for GT1 (Mod) and GT2 (10.5) classes. We are otherwise following all of the IIC Rules. It will be 4.8v maximum. We have asked anyone wanting to run more than 4.8v to get the Pro10 Rules revived and updated. We hope both classes will run together to make for bigger pan-car meetings.
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Old 10-14-2008, 11:43 PM   #130
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Well said.
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Old 10-15-2008, 06:42 AM   #131
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+2 slower.
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Old 10-15-2008, 11:41 AM   #132
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I'll post it again..

I am NOT IN FAVOR OF SPEC.

I AM IN FAVOR OF COST CONTROL

Cost control can be had very easy for club and large events.
Restrict the quantity of motors/batteries/and tires used by a racer at each event.

For club racing, that could be as simple as 1motor, 1 battery, 2 sets of tires.
For event racing, the quantity could be bump up as needed. Example to 2 packs, 2 motors, 4 sets of tires for a 3 heat 1 Main event.

Cost Control could be taken another step further with quantity limits for manufacture approvals. Limit the approved bodies and batteries to just two body styles and batteries packs for each manufacture.

Motors for obvious reasons limit to ONE motor per winding. There is no need for a manufacture to have 5 models of 13.5s approved at one given time.

Tires are a touchy subject but why not limit the number of tire compounds per manufacture. Each manufacture can have two front compounds and two rear compounds. Tires are marked as a cost controlled item. The marking should be hard to duplicate by racrers such as White Foam Band or Molded Logo/words in wheel. To keep cost even lower at least one pair of fronts and rears must have matching compounds, Example Purple Fronts, Purple Rears. This would allow the manufacture to bulk buy one of the foam compounds instead of four smaller and different compound quantities.

Again this limited quantity approvals provides a fair maketplace for all manufactures to compete and yet does not force manufactures to make niche products or provide products that are hard to sell in other areas of R/C.
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Old 10-15-2008, 01:33 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer View Post
Firstly...

Do what works for your club. Don't try and match somebody else's rules just to match them. Why build rules that are (as an example) the same as what is run at the "super go-fast nationals"?

If you spec something for your area that's different than everybody else's it only effects the guys in your area that go to the "big show". And that's a "maybe". Nobody else in your club cares. Their not going to the big show.

If you can afford to go to the big show, you can afford to buy a few different sets of tires and perhaps a class legal motor.

Don't worry about anybody else. Do what you think is right for your club.

I'll interject that if you're club is on the fence about an item to use, choose the item that makes the cars slower, and you'll be just fine. Then think about the next step even less powerful than that, and you'll be even better off.

If you can get the WGT car to be slower than 1/12th stock you're on the right path. If you feel that's to slow (relative term)... you may need to find another class. It's about the quality of the racing, not the speed of it.

Cars that are controllable make for better races. Cars that are controllable will eventually find themselves driven by racers that are actually "on the line". These racers are not simply hanging-on and trying not to slap the wall coming onto the straight and promptly overshooting by 12 feet the next corner, but not before they drive right through the guy in front of them... They're actually driving, and racing (and not breaking stuff), means it's cheaper and less frustrating.

For the majority of us, the a-main at a club race of say 1/12th stock has a spread of anywhere from 4-8 laps. Skill level aside, the gap on that will tighten with cars that are easier to drive. More racers finishing closer together. That's a positive way to encourage folks to come back and have fun. Not putting 8-10 laps on the 7th place guy.

With the exception of say the top 40 guys in the USA in any given class, there is more "hanging-on" going on, than actual skillful "driving".

<---usually hanging-on to it...
............ And I'll post this again, well said.......... Bottom line, we need to get this class going locally.

......... Now, let's get racing!
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Old 10-15-2008, 01:39 PM   #134
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I'll post it again..

I am NOT IN FAVOR OF SPEC. I AM IN FAVOR OF COST CONTROL

<SNIPPAGE>
Rather than debate the point, I'll lead you to the dilemma.

You are for cost control racing. great idea, why not, let's try it.

a) How much is to much money to spend? I need an actual dollar value.

b) Do you feel prices will go up or down if we're using less parts.
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Old 10-15-2008, 01:43 PM   #135
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Firstly...
It's about the quality of the racing, not the speed of it..
Bravo!

I have been racing in the slowest class I have raced in since I started in 1983. It is a fairly tightly controlled spec class using 540 silvers.

Do not let the speed fool you. It is fiercely competitive and very close - It really does elevate your heart rate. It is far more fun then dumping a pile of cash on the most horse power you can dump on the track.
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