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Old 10-15-2008, 03:15 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer View Post
Rather than debate the point, I'll lead you to the dilemma.

You are for cost control racing. great idea, why not, let's try it.

a) How much is to much money to spend? I need an actual dollar value.

b) Do you feel prices will go up or down if we're using less parts.
A) How much is too much? $50 max for a 4-cell pack, $65 max for a 3.7V Lipo. Bodies, $25 max, Motors $80 for a 13.5 Brushless, Tires $17 max for rear pair, $15 max for front pair.

B)

The only affect for prices is to be reduced should enough competition lead to price discounts. More than likely, prices will remain the same as manufactures are competing on performance not price. Until there is either a Low-Cost Leader or Change in economies of scale for producing any of the consumables, racing prices will remain steady. Right now most companies focus on product differentiation by improving quality. Improved quality means higher cost to racer but better performance on the track. The total impact of a open-manufacture will allow any company to compete to sale their product but at a limited selection which will increase economies of scale. Companies can use economies of scale brought on by Cost-Controlled-Racing to reduce material and batch cost yet keep the quality the same and allow the reduction in cost to be passed to the racer. Should the performance of their product be currently lacking, the economies of scale would allow more resources to be focused on quality and performance without raising the cost to the consumer.

The cost-controlled-rules benefit the traveling racer most by allowing the racer to reduce excess expenses in Tires, Batteries, Motors and Bodies. Most of the cost reduction will come tires since the 12 compound variety is reduce to just two for all racers abiding by the rules. The next area for major cost reduction would be batteries, racers will have to save their batteries for multiple runs rather than abuse a pack to get the best performance for a single run. This will lead to longer battery life and less batteries owned at any one time. For the stay local racer the benefit from not having to buy multiples of the consumables should be enough to considered to adapting Cost-Controlled-Rules to increase participation in that race class.

Last edited by trailranger; 10-15-2008 at 04:01 PM.
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Old 10-15-2008, 05:20 PM   #137
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You want to kill any class add Speed.Spec racing is spec racing. Then you make changes to make it faster and it kills the whole thing.Spec racing is good locally to get racers into the hobby.If they want to move up they can .It's that simple!This new /old class is with GT bodies . You want to run faster put a doorslammer body on it and a faster motor.You'll have the same old problems as in the past that many of you out there have not see before except the old guys that have been around. It's the same cycle again only big difference is now we have the internet to post on!
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Old 10-15-2008, 05:30 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by SlowerOne View Post

If we want to talk about getting facts straight, the let's do that. As Chairman of the IFMAR Electric Section at the time, I was in the meeting...

Pro10 died when it was removed as an IFMAR class for the 2000 IFMAR Worlds
Sorry but in 2000 Masami Hirosaka won the last IFMAR World Championship Electric Track PRO 10. So the class was not drop for the 2000 worlds. I was sad I made the team but could not go.

Manufacturers stop supporting the class in 99 when they start putting more effort in to TC. Then when they change the rule you saw a drop in both 1/12th and Pro 10 cars. Let see 1/12th is an IFMAR class and it almost die, I did for outdoors racing till now.

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The consensus was that 12th had a future, but that Pro10 was too fast, people were not buying the cars because they were difficult to drive and expensive to maintain (remember that the IFMAR and ROAR class was four minutes, not five or eight - these cars were ballistic!) and that getting a viable number of drivers to participate was unlikely.
Sorry again it was manufactures that had their drivers to run more TC class to sell more TC. Then talk about hard to maintain??? I can maintain my car with a lot less time then I ever did with a TC. Then Difficult to drive is a bunch of, It a lot easier to drive then 1/12th and even more then TC.

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Manufacturers never stopped supporting it - a 10L3 has been for sale ever since, and tyres and bodies too.
Sorry but there was never a 10L3 on road car out there, they never put it out. They show photos but never put it out.

Then you have the 10L3TC joke, trying to make it a cheap TC and when they found out it did not work that stop putting any money behind it. If they did it with a GT body I think they would have did better.

For bodies sorry but LHS could not get good bodies, Protoform stop marketing thire 905b, the only place you could get it was at stormer hobbies.

Most did not want to go to Stormer and with no LHS getting bodies, you could not race with no bodies. Some had to stop racing because with out a good supplies of bodies they did not want to run. Now with the protoform marketing and LHS getting bodies they are selling again. My LHS sold more of the GTP bodies the GT bodies.

Tries only stuck around was for oval, if oval was not doing better we would have no tries also.

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If you want to revive the Pro10 class, then get some Rules for it. .
Page 52 of the roar handbook is where the rules are for Can-Am/GTP/WSC GT/GT-1/Trans-Am.
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Old 10-15-2008, 06:00 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by trailranger View Post

I am NOT IN FAVOR OF SPEC.

I AM IN FAVOR OF COST CONTROL

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Originally Posted by BullFrog View Post
You want to kill any class add Speed.
I agree SPEC rules hurt any class over-all, which is why I brought up cost-control rules rather than SPEC rules.

Spec racing can be as expensive or more expensive compared to normal brushless racing. Spec racing leads to overconsumption and hoarding of items.

Silver can motors are a good example of overconsumption and hoarding. It has been said that about 1 out of every 10 motors have the capability to be a good race motor. The other 9 will just spin your wheels. So racers are buying 10, 20, 50 motors to find a few good ones. The rest are sold at a discount to club racers who already know they are sub-par equipment.

Then comes batteries, spec racers will buy just as many packs as there are qualification heats and mains. Sounds just like a normal r/c racing program. Even if the packs are 1/2 the cost of a good 4600 pack, the price still adds up. It has also be said that about 1/2 the spec packs are flat leading racers from buying a few packs to buying several packs and trashing the rest.

Then comes tires, last years batch was better then this years batch so racers are going out and buying up all the old-stock and forcing the "Club" racers to be a lap down because of a this years slight variance in rubber compound. Open-Manufacture would eliminate that as if one Companies Low Cost tire is "OUT-OF-SPEC" then racers will just switch brands. Instead SPEC racing encourages racers to buy up a old-stock and giving manufactures a "False-positive" that sales are increasing from hoarders and the manufacture keeps making crappy tires without addressing the quality issue.

Lastly, IMO SPEC racing creates a unfair business environment that leads to NO PRODUCT INOVATTION, PRICE FIXING, AND REDUCTION IN OVER ALL QUALITY.
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Old 10-15-2008, 06:31 PM   #140
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Just curious Trailranger.
Do you consider something like the USVTA series spec racing or cost controled racing?
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Old 10-15-2008, 06:53 PM   #141
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Just curious Trailranger.
Do you consider something like the USVTA series spec racing or cost controled racing?
if the USVTRA has proven itself as a viable entity and still around in 5 years check back in
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Old 10-15-2008, 07:05 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by mini_mac View Post
if the USVTRA has proven itself as a viable entity and still around in 5 years check back in
This post thead will be dead by then.

I mention that class just so I can get a better idea of where trailranger is coming from on cost control and spec classes.
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Old 10-15-2008, 07:47 PM   #143
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SPEC racing is when any or all aspects of the rules are SPECIFIED to a certain model, make or brand when other viable alternatives are available.

So yes the VTA is SPEC racing because the tires are SPECIFIED to HPI parts 4793 and 4797.

What makes the VTA a popular now is that the limitations are only imposed to the tires increase the appearance of the "Vintage" look.
Because the body, electronics,chassis, motor and battery options are open to other manufacture, the tire aspect does not provide much risk or much discontent. Another aspect is ROLLOUT, VTA imposes a roll out rule to keep the speeds nearly the same which makes the racing more exciting as the speeds are slower and passing takes setup and time. ROLLOUT is not an equalizer for skill, but it does redudce the chances of an average driver from getting SPANKED and does bring back the chance of a win should the leader bobble. ROLLOUT rules are not a sure bet for long term success, the Ledgends faded away for many years and rollout was a factor in making that racing fun.

If you look at the BRL rules of 2007/2008 the only allowed Electronics and Motors were Novak with the exception of the LRP SPHERE. This created discontent as there was product variance within the Novak Motors and some racers were stuck in a "Put-up or Shut-Up" style of racing as if they wanted to race where they lived, they would have to race according to BRL rules. Yes the SPEC rules did create a fast low cost racing series for the first year. By season two, the series became a money pit with racers buying $200 gauss meters, $200 inductance meters, multiple rotors, and dyno'ing ESC's in addition to the escalted cost that oval brings anyways with tires/bodies and batteries.

Another SPEC series that has problems is Tamiya Championship. Racers are bending the rules with the motors and tires and even with the required hardware on the car just to be competitive.

It does not stop there. RC18T's? Legends? Sliders? How many racers have been part of a NICHE SPEC race class that started out as a box stock club thing. Over time allowed upgrade here, then some more because the cars lacked the durability or tunebility as RACE BUILT r/c car and the cost to be competitive keeping new racers away or in the dust of the modded cars.. Most of the time, SPEC RTR classes can end up costing the same as a the stand by 1/10 and 1/12 cars and the only thing they accomplish is splitting the club racers into two dying classes instead of one collective fielded race class.

Keep the rules open to manufactures, and the RTR toys at home. Only make changes to rules when changes are needed not because they can be made. If the total cost of racing is escalating find out if it is the racers or the manufactures making the cost high. These are my opinions on how to make long term success.
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Old 10-16-2008, 05:13 AM   #144
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Trailranger - Ditto.Seen so many of the spec classes getting out of hand because afew want to change things.I saw it with Legends - MANY battery packs and hardly any tire on the rims. The cars built by Trinity- Bolink for spec oval racing(same thing).They ended up buying more stuff (batteries -motors and tires) than you would normaly.Your local group wants to run spec go for it.The basic rules(ROAR) for these class have been there for many years.Clubs have always had there local options to run what they want.I'm using a HPI AMG Mercedes- works fine (had the body for 4-5 years).It meets all the requirements for the body style but it's not on the LIST.Tough- Im running it. I did just get a new Protoform body but if it doesn't work like my Mercedes I'm switching.Spec who's spec? You want people to get out and race in your area- do what it takes.But limited tires and bodies is not my answer.
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Old 10-21-2008, 08:54 AM   #145
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I think that one thing that a lot of people are missing in this discussion that is extremely important here is the fun factor. I know we want good close racign but if we have racing but everybody is worried about their packs and motors and otehr stuff, they will lose sight of the idea of having fun and cameraderie and enjoying yourselves throughout the race day and race weekend.
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Old 10-21-2008, 08:59 AM   #146
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Does anyone have a link to that WGT rules site?
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Old 10-21-2008, 09:03 AM   #147
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Does anyone have a link to that WGT rules site?
Sorry, old rules.
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Old 10-21-2008, 09:27 AM   #148
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I don't think that argument holds water.

You can't use the fact that you might have 1s lipos laying around from your 12th, because at this moment only the premium brand even has one in development. It is a long, long way from being the standard that racers are invested in. Both classes will have their technological makeup decided mutually, but that moment is still in the future.

Imagine the pan classes go with 1s lipo. You'd need two $100 lipos, plus 2 receiver 2s $25 lipos for every pan class. That equipment would only work in pan cars.

Imagine the pan classes go with a smaller motor. You'd need one $70 motor for every pan class.

Remind me again where this argument that 1s lipo is the superior solution comes from?

-Adam
Well, while your argument holds water if an individual races PANCAR exclusively, many run off-road, and TC. A 17.5 540 size motor will work in every class they race. The $70 micro motor works in one or two classes. So a $70 investment in a 540 motor I can run in my TC, Buggy, and pan car is a much more sensible investment imo. Doesn't affect me as I race 12th scale exclusively, but I know how many folks at our local tracks run all these different disciplines, and wouldn't buy in based on these smaller motors.
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Old 10-21-2008, 09:28 AM   #149
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Does anyone have a link to that WGT rules site?
http://www.worldgtrc.com/
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Old 10-27-2008, 07:32 PM   #150
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Id like to see the WGT class really grow first but I will say that as I am tracking the relative growth of the class I have been rattling an idea around in my head for a World GT event (GT1 and GT2 classes) and I'll be working some stuff out while I keep an eye on the GT racing scene.
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