Should ROAR limit LiPO Capacity in Stock Classes
05-02-2013, 05:48 AM
#46
Yes, there are many sources for 5000mAH LiPos, but each source rarely has more than one full size battery rated 5000mAH. Most of the online sources, half of the batteries are out of stock. Many vendors the batteries are "sport" models. At my LHS store, half the VTA legal batteries are older models that cost more than the 6500 mAH batteries with similar discharge and C ratings. The battery market has spoken they will produce larger capacity batteries and force the racing organizations to adjust.
05-02-2013, 07:47 AM
#47
You guys have to realize that the Lipo batteries we use, the cells that go into the hard cases, are not MADE for RC racing. They are made for consumer electronics and industrial/aerospace applications. That is the market the battery manufacturers are going after. The cells just happen to be good for our application.
The battery manufacturers need to continuously cram more capacity, lower IR, higher C ratings and better safety to stay competitive.
There will come a day when the 2500mah cells that are arranged 2s2p (or the 5000mah cells 2s) used in VTA packs will be discontinued or only manufactured by
poor quality 3rd tier manufacturers.
Also, the latest cells are sold to RC companies as 7000-7200mah. In reality they run 6500-7000mah so companies label them a 6500-7000. If I had a battery company I would test all my cells and I would take the bottom 20% slap a 5000mah label on them and sell them cheap as kick butt VTA packs. There is nothing that would stop anyone from doing this.
The battery manufacturers need to continuously cram more capacity, lower IR, higher C ratings and better safety to stay competitive.
There will come a day when the 2500mah cells that are arranged 2s2p (or the 5000mah cells 2s) used in VTA packs will be discontinued or only manufactured by
poor quality 3rd tier manufacturers.
Also, the latest cells are sold to RC companies as 7000-7200mah. In reality they run 6500-7000mah so companies label them a 6500-7000. If I had a battery company I would test all my cells and I would take the bottom 20% slap a 5000mah label on them and sell them cheap as kick butt VTA packs. There is nothing that would stop anyone from doing this.
05-02-2013, 08:02 AM
#48
You guys have to realize that the Lipo batteries we use, the cells that go into the hard cases, are not MADE for RC racing. They are made for consumer electronics and industrial/aerospace applications. That is the market the battery manufacturers are going after. The cells just happen to be good for our application.
The battery manufacturers need to continuously cram more capacity, lower IR, higher C ratings and better safety to stay competitive.
There will come a day when the 2500mah cells that are arranged 2s2p (or the 5000mah cells 2s) used in VTA packs will be discontinued or only manufactured by
poor quality 3rd tier manufacturers.
Also, the latest cells are sold to RC companies as 7000-7200mah. In reality they run 6500-7000mah so companies label them a 6500-7000. If I had a battery company I would test all my cells and I would take the bottom 20% slap a 5000mah label on them and sell them cheap as kick butt VTA packs. There is nothing that would stop anyone from doing this.
The battery manufacturers need to continuously cram more capacity, lower IR, higher C ratings and better safety to stay competitive.
There will come a day when the 2500mah cells that are arranged 2s2p (or the 5000mah cells 2s) used in VTA packs will be discontinued or only manufactured by
poor quality 3rd tier manufacturers.
Also, the latest cells are sold to RC companies as 7000-7200mah. In reality they run 6500-7000mah so companies label them a 6500-7000. If I had a battery company I would test all my cells and I would take the bottom 20% slap a 5000mah label on them and sell them cheap as kick butt VTA packs. There is nothing that would stop anyone from doing this.
If they made a rule that said 25C maximum, tomorrow you would see a ton of packs with 25C stickers on them. The inside of the packs wouldn't be any different though.
The battery capacity rules are useless and should be abolished.
05-02-2013, 08:15 AM
#49
Tech Master
iTrader: (13)
This is racing, not ballroom dancing. The "Stock" classes are just that... classes based on "Stock" motors, ie: 17.5, 13.5, etc turns. No one said these classes were supposed to result in a completely level/equal playing field for all drivers. The fact of the matter is that it is easier than ever for the average racer to procure equipment that is as good as the sponsored/team drivers. And if the average racer has the motivation, skill/know-how, and a little bit of disposable income... they can often obtain better equipment than a lot of their competitors.
The Stock classes are doing great right now... they are seeing big attendance numbers at pretty much all the big races. The rules should not be changed because there is a small group of people who want to run the same motor/battery for 3 seasons and still be competitive. Stock classes require that you keep up with the joneses to be at the top... if you aren't interested in doing that, a VTA-type class that limits the allowed equipment may be up your alley.
Don't ruin things for the rest of us, though.
05-02-2013, 08:20 AM
#50
Tech Master
iTrader: (13)
One of my local tracks used to implement a battery capacity/discharge limit for their 17.5 Sedan class(6000mah/60C limit). I never understood the reasoning behind such rules...
Until batteries begin being inspected by a governing body such as ROAR, using an approved device to measure the total capacity and discharge rate, and those numbers end up on the labels.... the mah/C-ratings are all but meaningless.
05-02-2013, 08:27 AM
#51
A rule of this nature would only encourage battery matchers to lie more, it's hard enough as it is.
OK, they don't lie, they're like lawyers, they tell their version of the truth. A pile of "5000" lipos from the same batch could go anywhere from say 4850 to 5150 or whatever. If supplier X rates their lipos at 4500, 5000, 5500 for instance, you can't sell a 5300 as a 5500, but you can sell it as a 5000.
OK, they don't lie, they're like lawyers, they tell their version of the truth. A pile of "5000" lipos from the same batch could go anywhere from say 4850 to 5150 or whatever. If supplier X rates their lipos at 4500, 5000, 5500 for instance, you can't sell a 5300 as a 5500, but you can sell it as a 5000.
05-02-2013, 03:46 PM
#54
It took the governing bodies along time to get a grasp of NiMHs and LiPos when they came out. But that is the nature of an organization of any size.
05-02-2013, 05:17 PM
#56
COMMON SENSE Your common sense manual is about as useful in this situation as the ROAR rulebook. Look in a "history book". It is not the fault of the battery manufacturers. They would go out of business if their only market was RC cars. RC car racing is a nearly insignificant compared to the portable electronics industry. It is the RC industry that needs to keep up with the manufacturers of the batteries.
It took the governing bodies along time to get a grasp of NiMHs and LiPos when they came out. But that is the nature of an organization of any size.
It took the governing bodies along time to get a grasp of NiMHs and LiPos when they came out. But that is the nature of an organization of any size.
And by the very statement you've made (that I've conveniently bold'd for you), you contradict your previous posts.
I used to be indecisive, but now I'm not so sure...
Bringing the topic back, totally agree that a capacity/C rating limit is a pretty unworkable solution. It's far to easy (as has been pointed out) for a MFG just to relable a 5300 as a 5000.. And with no set standard to test C rating, what does that achieve?
A battery is not like a motor, where it is (relatively) easy to measure the factors that dictate performance (wire, stack etc). For batteries, have a max physical size limit (as now) nd be done with it. Why make life harder than it needs to be?
Last edited by TryHard; 05-02-2013 at 05:22 PM. Reason: bringing the topic back to the point..
05-03-2013, 04:35 AM
#57
I race for fun as of right now and have all the top of the line motors, batteries, ESC , Xray T4 and radio and I'm not on the podium... If you ask me the best of the best can take a new guys car with 1500mah 25C and a motor that has been overheated every time it's out and still win a race (club race).. Having $3000 in batteries and motors in the pits doesn't put you in the Amain every time.. I'm still new to this hobby and I am fortunate enough to start out with all top of the line stuff but IMHO it doesn't make me a better driver so be happy with what you have and have fun, eventually you'll need the expensive top of the line equipment to keep up with the fastest guys because you're at the same level but in the beginning, there's no way you are out driving your equipment unless its really that old and outdated
05-03-2013, 05:10 AM
#58
I race for fun as of right now and have all the top of the line motors, batteries, ESC , Xray T4 and radio and I'm not on the podium... If you ask me the best of the best can take a new guys car with 1500mah 25C and a motor that has been overheated every time it's out and still win a race (club race).. Having $3000 in batteries and motors in the pits doesn't put you in the Amain every time.. I'm still new to this hobby and I am fortunate enough to start out with all top of the line stuff but IMHO it doesn't make me a better driver so be happy with what you have and have fun, eventually you'll need the expensive top of the line equipment to keep up with the fastest guys because you're at the same level but in the beginning, there's no way you are out driving your equipment unless its really that old and outdated
JOE SI is right on. You really do not need the motor/battery of the week to stay competitive. I have top of the line stuff now but I have been stuck mid pack in recent club races. I sold off my best motors because I thought they were slow and ordered new ones. I had to race last week with bottom of my pit box crap motors (an old D3 13.5 and and old TP 13.5). I TQd every round and won both of my mains wire to wire against guys with the latest stuff. I guess the newest motors are not that much better.
People should worry less about equalizing racing and doing more productive things like car maintenance, trying setup changes and turning a ton of laps.
Last edited by AdrianM; 05-03-2013 at 05:26 AM.
05-03-2013, 07:25 AM
#59
I have been racing for 26 years (most of the time as a broke kid, broke college grad, broke new dad). I never had the best gear but I have always been a top half of the A main guy. How? By learning to drive well and really understanding car setup. This is dirt cheap compared to batts, motors and chargers.
JOE SI is right on. You really do not need the motor/battery of the week to stay competitive. I have top of the line stuff now but I have been stuck mid pack in recent club races. I sold off my best motors because I thought they were slow and ordered new ones. I had to race last week with bottom of my pit box crap motors (an old D3 13.5 and and old TP 13.5). I TQd every round and won both of my mains wire to wire against guys with the latest stuff. I guess the newest motors are not that much better.
People should worry less about equalizing racing and doing more productive things like car maintenance, trying setup changes and turning a ton of laps.
JOE SI is right on. You really do not need the motor/battery of the week to stay competitive. I have top of the line stuff now but I have been stuck mid pack in recent club races. I sold off my best motors because I thought they were slow and ordered new ones. I had to race last week with bottom of my pit box crap motors (an old D3 13.5 and and old TP 13.5). I TQd every round and won both of my mains wire to wire against guys with the latest stuff. I guess the newest motors are not that much better.
People should worry less about equalizing racing and doing more productive things like car maintenance, trying setup changes and turning a ton of laps.
05-03-2013, 07:54 AM
#60
Tech Master
iTrader: (13)
We do need to make a distinction between club level and national level races, though. I agree with the above statement for 90% of clubs/tracks. But Stock at the national level is quite different. Showing up to IIC or Snowbirds with a D3 is going to pan out a little different than a club race.