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Old 10-11-2009, 06:19 AM   #1366
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Originally Posted by DriftWoof View Post
I just installed a Novak Ballistic 3S 8.5T 5000KV brushless system in my TB-03D. It is a little slow at start up and I thought it was suppose to be like that.

I played with my Sprint 2 recently and it has a Orion Orbital 13T Modified Motor and Tazer 12T ESC and I had a blast. Smooth, torque, awesome. A dream to drift/race with.

I read the manuel and it said you must change the pinion gear or I'll have a slow sloppy start and it'll run hotter(Like it does now). It gave some pinion teeth numbers though. Not sure what to choose or where to get it.

I don't have to change the Spur Gear right? What pinion gear for my motor should I get for the TB-03D to optimize it? Where to get it?


Also, after playing with my Sprint 2 I almost went back to brush motors. I am new to Brushless Systems still. The Orion was awesome, I want my TB-03D to have that feeling of torque, smoothness and not running hot. Also my brush has 0 glitches.

Let me hear your thoughts.
When you refer "It is a little slow at start up", do you mean it kinda like sputter a little before it pulls away? If that's the case, then it's probably cogging. Sensored brushless systems generally take care of this issue, but if the battery voltage is too low, it will still occurs. Brush motor/esc setup will not suffer from this issue.

Since you are drifting, for the 8.5T motor, you can start with a FDR of about 6.0. I uses a Novak SS5800 (8.5T) and my FDR is 5.85 (for drifting).

So, for my case, I uses Tamiya 04 module pinions/spur.
(Spur / pinion) x Internal ratio = FDR
(96 / 40) x 2.438 (TB-03's internal ratio) = 5.85

This is only a guide number. The final number will be decided by how you feel and very importantly, the esc and motor temperature. I generally keep my motor temp below 175F.

Hope this helps.

Cheers!!
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Old 10-11-2009, 01:02 PM   #1367
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Originally Posted by kerk View Post
When you refer "It is a little slow at start up", do you mean it kinda like sputter a little before it pulls away? If that's the case, then it's probably cogging. Sensored brushless systems generally take care of this issue, but if the battery voltage is too low, it will still occurs. Brush motor/esc setup will not suffer from this issue.

Since you are drifting, for the 8.5T motor, you can start with a FDR of about 6.0. I uses a Novak SS5800 (8.5T) and my FDR is 5.85 (for drifting).

So, for my case, I uses Tamiya 04 module pinions/spur.
(Spur / pinion) x Internal ratio = FDR
(96 / 40) x 2.438 (TB-03's internal ratio) = 5.85

This is only a guide number. The final number will be decided by how you feel and very importantly, the esc and motor temperature. I generally keep my motor temp below 175F.

Hope this helps.

Cheers!!
Well it's not cogging. I had that with my Castle Sidewinder 4600. It's a little hmmm weak/slow on startups. What's FDR? The president? lol

Another thing, why do people still use brush motors when brushless is not affordable? I still see brush motors and even with people who have plenty of time knowledge and cash to simply get one.

I love the sound that brushed motors make. Also smoothness and torque they make. They never cause glitching and don't need to be cooled. How long do they last until they need maintenance to keep the power level up on them?

I wanna hear all opinions on this. DOes anyone still use a brushed motor?
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Old 10-11-2009, 01:48 PM   #1368
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I ran a Novak 8.5 in my TB03 the first time I raced it, I used the stock gearing (7.6?) and imo it was pretty good, If I was going to keep the motor installed I would have geared lower to get more punch out of the corners, But the motor ran cool and the car was going pretty good.

As for brushed motors, The crap associated with them is why I left the hobby for a few years, I'm only back due to brushless.
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Old 10-11-2009, 02:52 PM   #1369
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Originally Posted by Metla View Post
I ran a Novak 8.5 in my TB03 the first time I raced it, I used the stock gearing (7.6?) and imo it was pretty good, If I was going to keep the motor installed I would have geared lower to get more punch out of the corners, But the motor ran cool and the car was going pretty good.

As for brushed motors, The crap associated with them is why I left the hobby for a few years, I'm only back due to brushless.
That comment may keep me with brushless. I was so amazed with my sprint 2 though. It was probably like that because it's belt driven possibly. I dunno.
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Old 10-11-2009, 02:55 PM   #1370
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Originally Posted by DriftWoof View Post
What's FDR? The president? lol

Its a acronym for Final Drive Ratio. FDR tells you how many turns of your motors pinion it will take to turn your wheel over once. Kerk has already gave you the math on it, so plug your figures in for whatever gearing you are using and go from there. On the other cars you have you will need to know what the internal ratio is first before you know what the FDR will be. It is usually listed in the instruction manual of the car, but if it is not its simple to figure out.

Belt car- center pulley teeth divided by the number of teeth on the diff pulley.
Shaft car- pinion gear teeth (pinion on the drive shaft) divided by the number of teeth on the crown gear.

Quote:
Another thing, why do people still use brush motors when brushless is not affordable? I still see brush motors and even with people who have plenty of time knowledge and cash to simply get one.
I love the sound that brushed motors make. Also smoothness and torque they make. They never cause glitching and don't need to be cooled. How long do they last until they need maintenance to keep the power level up on them?
Different strokes for different folks I guess. Brushed motors are more tunable by the user than a brushless motor is. You can experiment with different brushes, com oils, springs etc to tune the motor to what you like. I think that has a lot of appeal to people who like to tinker. I like brushless because its no maintenance. Its more efficient too with longer run times. I don't have to look at the motor in between rounds to see if I need to cut the com so I can concentrate more on racing that wrenching. Brushless is smoother and makes more power. Brushed motors actually cause more glitching...and do need to be cooled down...but they are more resilient and can be ran a lot harder with out worrying about destroying the motor. How long a brushed motor will last between rebuilds depend on how many winds it is, if your using it where it is getting really dirty, and how hard are you running it...(gearing) I still use a brushed motor in my slash and mini cooper I do like the sound like you said, hearing a mod motor scream by at top speed is very cool
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Old 10-11-2009, 03:17 PM   #1371
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Major differences with brushed versus brushless;

Brushed;

Must cut the comm often. The lower the wind the more often. Depending on brush compound and spring tension as well.

Brushed motors do not hold their balance. The winds constantly move and need (or should) be rebalanced and in some instances will move enough to short out.

Also the same issues with heat play into both.


Brushless;

No comms to cut, no winds that move, less rotating weight, tons more torque and quicker to rev to full rpm.

+ over all less to operate with near "0" maintenance.
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Old 10-11-2009, 03:20 PM   #1372
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On a racing note,

Got to race my TB03 on carpet up in Virginia yesterday. It did very well...it rocks as a carpet rubber car. I was even running a spool since I was determined to figure out spool on carpet. I've never had any luck with spools on carpet and always ran one ways. Still learning, but the TB03 was pretty dialed. I had the fastest lap time of the day in 17.5 and 13.5, tqed and won my main, and my final time in the main was 2 laps ahead of 2nd place qualifiers time in qualifying Only Tamiya, only shaft, only tub hehe

YAY TB03! It's Ninja
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Old 10-11-2009, 09:24 PM   #1373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmie View Post
On a racing note,

Got to race my TB03 on carpet up in Virginia yesterday. It did very well...it rocks as a carpet rubber car. I was even running a spool since I was determined to figure out spool on carpet. I've never had any luck with spools on carpet and always ran one ways. Still learning, but the TB03 was pretty dialed. I had the fastest lap time of the day in 17.5 and 13.5, tqed and won my main, and my final time in the main was 2 laps ahead of 2nd place qualifiers time in qualifying Only Tamiya, only shaft, only tub hehe

YAY TB03! It's Ninja
nice job! can we see a pic of your current setup?
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Old 10-12-2009, 02:18 AM   #1374
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If I did the calculations right on the calculator. Getting closest to 0. Rollout ration 4.5.

64T Spur
22T Pinion
2.4 Transmission Ration
2.5" Tire Diameter(I use HPI T-Drifts on HPI 26mm Rims.)

I should be using a Tamiya 10T Pinion. It's even on the manuel as a suggestion to use 10T-15T on the Novak Ballistic 3S 8.5T Brushless System. Hopefully I got this right and I wont burn anything out or come up with less power. Let me know you thoughts guys.

Although I looked at 10T Tamiya Pinion gear and it looked to small. WHat would you guys recommend?


Gear Calculator Info/Thread:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_3255405/tm.htm

Gear Calculator:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/community/gearwizard.cfm
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Old 10-13-2009, 11:59 AM   #1375
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anyone check out the new onroad fourms at tamiya's website?
Nice
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Old 10-15-2009, 04:40 AM   #1376
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Hi Timmie,
yday finally my tb03 has arrived , and i spent all night for the assembly.
One important question: I used all 6 shim for adjust the diff clearance, but
when i have assembled the diff case still 3/4 mm or little more diff play .
Could you pls advise how many mm on diff play are correct?

tnks n best rgds

Max
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Old 10-15-2009, 07:03 AM   #1377
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Originally Posted by R1wurks View Post
nice job! can we see a pic of your current setup?
Hey! how are ya doing? Do any racing with Jon after the TCS?

I will post a pic after I take one, I don't have one that is current at the moment. Still using your fan setup, it rocks! I still get asked about where I got the neat cooling fan setup Hope your well, don't be a stranger
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Old 10-15-2009, 07:13 AM   #1378
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Originally Posted by mtaddei View Post
Hi Timmie,
yday finally my tb03 has arrived , and i spent all night for the assembly.
One important question: I used all 6 shim for adjust the diff clearance, but
when i have assembled the diff case still 3/4 mm or little more diff play .
Could you pls advise how many mm on diff play are correct?

tnks n best rgds

Max

Hey Max how are you?

I am glad you finally got your car It is always nice to get something new in the mail

I posted my method of setting up the diff clearance a few pages back...I hope this will explain it well enough to you.

Quote:
As far as your drivetrain goes, you cannot go by how many shims someone has on their car and expect it to be right. For instance, when I went from the kit plastic diff cases to the carbon ones, I had to lose almost all the shims on the diff because the tolerances were different. So even though the amount of shims someone tells you they have on their car may get you close, it also may be way off for your cars tolerances.

The easiest way I can explain without pictures is to set your pinion gear shaft play first. I would follow what the manual says as far as shims for this as a starting point. Then with it installed in the lower diff housing half, put the top diff housing on and push and pull on the drive cup and see how much front to back play you have. There should be a very small amount. If so then do the other diff housing the same way. When you are done shimming, with both diff housing halves together, spin the pinion shaft to make sure that it is spinning freely and not binding. If you shim this area of the drivetrain too tight, it will bind up here and cause a lot of drag and burn up bearings. If you shim it too loose, the main drive shaft will get in a bind under throttle and braking because it will have side to side play along with forward and rearward. Then you risk damage to the crown and pinion gear, along with vibration of the driveshaft at high drive line rpm.

After those are shimmed correctly, install the built diffs into the the bottom diff housing with the bearing installed but with no shims. With the pinion gear shaft installed push the diff away from the pinion gear until the bearing is against the side of the lower diff housing. Then push the pinion shaft down by its bearings and with a finger do not let the pinion gear move. Now take your other hand and rock the diff back and forth and check how much slack there is with the gear mesh. Think of it as being similar to the method on how you would check the gear mesh of your motor pinion and spur gear mesh. You want the mesh to have just a little bit of play, with both parts shimmed and checking it like I described above it I usually try to get about .50mm/.60mm of movement on the crown gear....(make a small mark on the crown gear if you like and observe the movement of the mark if it helps) So if it has too much slop, just add some shims to the flat side of the crown gear * the side with no teeth* until you get the desired about of clearance. While checking this, it is important to check the free play at a few different positions of the the crown gear to make sure there is indeed the desired play in 360 degrees of rotation of the crown gear. After that, add shims to the the side of the diff facing the crown gear teeth to take out the side to side play of the diff when it is installed in the diff housing. When you feel its pretty good, install the top diff housing and go ahead and bolt it together. Then spin the parts by hand and verify that they spin freely. Then with your pointer finger and thumb, grab both sides of the diff outdrives and check the side to side play with the diff housings bolted together. Also double check the pinion shafts forward and rearward play. You should be good to go then, install the main drive shaft and spin it and it should spin nice and free.

You can run your tolerances a little tighter or looser as both have there pluses and minuses. I'm not going to get into that because this post is long enough But I hope I explained it simple enough on how I do my cars basically. There are some more things you can do to be more precise like plastiguage and removing a little material here and there, but this is the basics and will get your car ready to hit the track.
Let me know if you cannot fix the problem and I will do my best to help you out.

Ciao
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Old 10-15-2009, 07:16 AM   #1379
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fat500 View Post
anyone check out the new onroad fourms at tamiya's website?
Nice
Where is it at? I must be half awake I don't see it

nvm i didnt see the flash ani in the middle of the screen....geesh if it was a snake it would have got me
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Last edited by Timmie; 10-15-2009 at 12:12 PM.
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Old 10-15-2009, 09:43 AM   #1380
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Ciao Timmie,
i'm well, but i'm little bit disappointed as the kit arrived in my local hobby shop only after 3 weeks from my order and now I don't have enough time
for next sunday tamiya race
However, i'm trying to explain better my doubt:
I have shimmed the dif pinion in order to reduce the longitudinal play, then a put in place the dif shimmed in order to reduce the transverse play between the dif and the pinion, then i close the dif box, but the ammount of transverse play between the dif and the dif pinion is still 3/4 mm or more, so i'm afraid to damage the coupling.
Is this play ok or it must be reduced? if must be reduced how i can do?

tnks for yr support Timmie, as i trust to be the only one in Italy with such model.

best rgds
Max
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