Tekin RS ESC sensored
02-04-2010, 09:02 AM
I suppose you know everybody says only change one thing at a time.
My suggestion would have been to start with zero motor timing, zero turbo and minimal boost and figure out the gearing. The latest software version can add so much timing and so fast, it practically moves the goalposts. You can gear as light as you want and still have a lot of top speed (let alone for some long tracks/straights).
This is what I have done. After you find the right gearing, start adding boost and then after adding all the boost you want, play with the ramp. After that, play with turbo/turbo ramp. I know it's tedious, but if you get a good day at the club you might go through the entire procedure in one night. (That wasn't my case though).
My suggestion would have been to start with zero motor timing, zero turbo and minimal boost and figure out the gearing. The latest software version can add so much timing and so fast, it practically moves the goalposts. You can gear as light as you want and still have a lot of top speed (let alone for some long tracks/straights).
This is what I have done. After you find the right gearing, start adding boost and then after adding all the boost you want, play with the ramp. After that, play with turbo/turbo ramp. I know it's tedious, but if you get a good day at the club you might go through the entire procedure in one night. (That wasn't my case though).
How do you know you have found the right gearing to start playing with all the settings? By motor temp, feel of car out of corner, lap times, etc?
02-04-2010, 09:02 AM
Okay, I did some changes as recommended above and I can already tell a huge difference. I have definately not heard this unit roar like it is right now on the bench.
Next track day is Sunday so I will try the 70mm rollout with these settings and keep track of my temps. I will post back again.
Thanks again all...
Next track day is Sunday so I will try the 70mm rollout with these settings and keep track of my temps. I will post back again.
Thanks again all...
02-04-2010, 09:04 AM
How much effect on heat does the turbo ramp have?
I am having difficulty in knowing if I should be lower or raising the start RPM for the boost. Because I have seen touring car setups with 1,500 start RPMs and with 4,000 start RPMs. I guess it depends on the track. It would seem that a lower RPM would build boost earlier and give you more rip, but I know it can bog down the motor and build heat which is the opposite of what I want.
Also, how could you possibly set your gearing with no boost or turbo? If you get your car "right" without either of them, by the time you add both surely you would be frying your motor.
I am having difficulty in knowing if I should be lower or raising the start RPM for the boost. Because I have seen touring car setups with 1,500 start RPMs and with 4,000 start RPMs. I guess it depends on the track. It would seem that a lower RPM would build boost earlier and give you more rip, but I know it can bog down the motor and build heat which is the opposite of what I want.
Also, how could you possibly set your gearing with no boost or turbo? If you get your car "right" without either of them, by the time you add both surely you would be frying your motor.
02-04-2010, 09:09 AM
I am having difficulty in knowing if I should be lower or raising the start RPM for the boost. Because I have seen touring car setups with 1,500 start RPMs and with 4,000 start RPMs. I guess it depends on the track. It would seem that a lower RPM would build boost earlier and give you more rip, but I know it can bog down the motor and build heat which is the opposite of what I want.
02-04-2010, 09:11 AM
I haven't used this method myself but I believe they aren't trying to find the gear that gives the best laptimes, but the gear that gives the best rip through the infield. Then start piling on the timing for straight speed.
02-04-2010, 09:16 AM
Do the turbo ramp and throttle profile settings affect the heat much? Or are they secondary to the heat generated by boost & turbo?
02-04-2010, 09:16 AM
Lap times don't count yet as I didn't have any boost or turbo so lost big time on the straight. The car however gets faster and faster through the really twisty bits of the track until I am happy that nobody is going to threaten my position there. This is because in the slow part of the track your car is always going to rely solely on gearing to pull through (and motor timing if you have/want any). Boost is not going to help there as is turbo. Once that is dialed, you can move to the next stage.
This procedure is a must for me because our track has a tight slalom section on the long side opposite the main straight.
If you want to use motor timing you can add it after you're happy with the gearing (before you go to boost/turbo) because that is going to be there at all times.
Last edited by niznai; 02-04-2010 at 10:31 AM.
02-04-2010, 10:15 AM
TJ,a few things like everyone has said to change is the delay is to low the rpm start is low,if the feal is good in the reange you have move them both up 2500-3k start and a 9500-10k end motor just touching the first mark should be close to 0-5deg and timing boost 45-50.try turning of the turbo with these setting or something close gear the car for the infeild and max out speed halfway down the straight then add you turbo.this does help
02-04-2010, 10:26 AM
Throttle profile, not so much. It's basically the same thing as exponential on the radio.
02-04-2010, 10:31 AM
TJ,a few things like everyone has said to change is the delay is to low the rpm start is low,if the feal is good in the reange you have move them both up 2500-3k start and a 9500-10k end motor just touching the first mark should be close to 0-5deg and timing boost 45-50.try turning of the turbo with these setting or something close gear the car for the infeild and max out speed halfway down the straight then add you turbo.this does help
02-04-2010, 10:52 AM
Ok, here's a generic info post I'll probably put on several of the v203/rs threads about my personal findings with timing, heat, punch, and general "why does this happen when".
Attached is a poorly drawn graph of what most people seem to be doing:
The black line is a rough approximation of the line you are trying to keep the timing at for MAX punch for a given motor. After all my testing I have a feeling its somewhat concave down thus have drawn it as such. Lets call it a 17.5 This line does not change based on track size, car, 2wd, 4wd, onroad, or offroad. If all you are looking for is "the most power" then once you find this timing line you have no reason to change anything other than gearing from track to track, turbo delay/ramp (if you use it), or going from 2s to 1s.
Short of personal "feel", this is what everyone is chasing with all the different ways of applying boost, motor timing, and turbo.
The Red line shows the "short boost window with turbo kicking in on the straight" approach that many onroad setups seem to follow while the green line is "boost only with a wide rpm band" that many offroad guys end up using. You can shift either line up or down at will, but I drew them where they are as examples.
Ok, any time your timing exceeds the "optimal" timing you are creating heat while only loosing a touch of power. The biggest thing you will notice with too much timing too early is motor fade and a hot motor, but you will still have mad rip if you aren't too far overdosed on timing. If you feel you have plenty of power, but are coming off hot you are overtimed somewhere in your rpm band. Short of a dyno or sentry with a good excel plot, no one can tell you where you are overtimed short of guess and check.
Anytime your timing is below the optimum timing you are giving up punch, but your motor will run icy cold. Many offroaders are finding this true as they don't need "max power" all the time and the reason randy and everyone else suggest rpm bands from 3k to 18k in order to maintain traction compared to our onroad counterparts looking to take advantage of the available traction. eg. If you ever feel your car is pulling too hard down low, but you still want the same top end rip increase your start rpm to stay further below the optimum timing down low, but you will maintain optimum timing towards the top if you leave the end rpm the same.
I'm not sure any of that made sense, but I'm in a rush atm and wanted to get it up. I'll clean it up later.
Attached is a poorly drawn graph of what most people seem to be doing:
The black line is a rough approximation of the line you are trying to keep the timing at for MAX punch for a given motor. After all my testing I have a feeling its somewhat concave down thus have drawn it as such. Lets call it a 17.5 This line does not change based on track size, car, 2wd, 4wd, onroad, or offroad. If all you are looking for is "the most power" then once you find this timing line you have no reason to change anything other than gearing from track to track, turbo delay/ramp (if you use it), or going from 2s to 1s.
Short of personal "feel", this is what everyone is chasing with all the different ways of applying boost, motor timing, and turbo.
The Red line shows the "short boost window with turbo kicking in on the straight" approach that many onroad setups seem to follow while the green line is "boost only with a wide rpm band" that many offroad guys end up using. You can shift either line up or down at will, but I drew them where they are as examples.
Ok, any time your timing exceeds the "optimal" timing you are creating heat while only loosing a touch of power. The biggest thing you will notice with too much timing too early is motor fade and a hot motor, but you will still have mad rip if you aren't too far overdosed on timing. If you feel you have plenty of power, but are coming off hot you are overtimed somewhere in your rpm band. Short of a dyno or sentry with a good excel plot, no one can tell you where you are overtimed short of guess and check.
Anytime your timing is below the optimum timing you are giving up punch, but your motor will run icy cold. Many offroaders are finding this true as they don't need "max power" all the time and the reason randy and everyone else suggest rpm bands from 3k to 18k in order to maintain traction compared to our onroad counterparts looking to take advantage of the available traction. eg. If you ever feel your car is pulling too hard down low, but you still want the same top end rip increase your start rpm to stay further below the optimum timing down low, but you will maintain optimum timing towards the top if you leave the end rpm the same.
I'm not sure any of that made sense, but I'm in a rush atm and wanted to get it up. I'll clean it up later.
02-04-2010, 11:33 AM
T.J.
Set your TP down to 3, timing boost to 40, timing ramp to 2, and 0 degree on motor. This should bring your temp back down to 145 without loosing speed. You'll also get more punch out of corners.
Set your TP down to 3, timing boost to 40, timing ramp to 2, and 0 degree on motor. This should bring your temp back down to 145 without loosing speed. You'll also get more punch out of corners.
Well I ran my Tekin for the first time last night. The profile I started out with wasn't linear enough. It was like a 3 speed transmission and it didn't have any power out of the slow corners. I ended up with a linear setup but it was running too hot. It was pretty chilly out last night and I was still hitting 170+ degrees. Settings were:
DB: 0
TP: 5
Boost: 50
Turbo: 8
Delay: 0.2
Ramp: 3
Start: 2,500
End: 8,000
Motor: Duo2 17.5 with 1.25 ticks timing (or 2.75 ticks under full timing)
Final: 6.17
The motor was running a little hot considering the weather and not running a full 6 minutes. But I was happy with the feel overall. I wish it had a tiny bit more rip out of the corner, but that might be an unreasonable request considering it IS a 17.5 (although it was faster than an SPX/13.5 combo!).
What I ended up changing was taking that one tick of timing out, and then gearing to 5.8. The car felt about the same but it dropped 10-20 degrees.
I still feel like it lags a tiny bit out of the corners. I was hesitant to drop the start RPM lower for fear that it would just bog the motor down and create more heat. Counter-intuitively going to a lower final drive (added 2 teeth) dropped the temps, although its hard to tell if it was the gear change or the reduced timing that had that effect.
What other options do I have to reduce heat and possibly gain some more rip out of the corners?
DB: 0
TP: 5
Boost: 50
Turbo: 8
Delay: 0.2
Ramp: 3
Start: 2,500
End: 8,000
Motor: Duo2 17.5 with 1.25 ticks timing (or 2.75 ticks under full timing)
Final: 6.17
The motor was running a little hot considering the weather and not running a full 6 minutes. But I was happy with the feel overall. I wish it had a tiny bit more rip out of the corner, but that might be an unreasonable request considering it IS a 17.5 (although it was faster than an SPX/13.5 combo!).
What I ended up changing was taking that one tick of timing out, and then gearing to 5.8. The car felt about the same but it dropped 10-20 degrees.
I still feel like it lags a tiny bit out of the corners. I was hesitant to drop the start RPM lower for fear that it would just bog the motor down and create more heat. Counter-intuitively going to a lower final drive (added 2 teeth) dropped the temps, although its hard to tell if it was the gear change or the reduced timing that had that effect.
What other options do I have to reduce heat and possibly gain some more rip out of the corners?
02-04-2010, 12:09 PM
Thanks! I will try them out.
02-04-2010, 12:13 PM
Motor temperature is a very good indicator (and a better one at that as "feel" is very subjective and most of the time misleading. If you don't believe that, ask a friend to stay on the track and follow you car when you race and then exchange impressions with him about your car's handling). So yes, I use motor temperature.
Lap times don't count yet as I didn't have any boost or turbo so lost big time on the straight. The car however gets faster and faster through the really twisty bits of the track until I am happy that nobody is going to threaten my position there. This is because in the slow part of the track your car is always going to rely solely on gearing to pull through (and motor timing if you have/want any). Boost is not going to help there as is turbo. Once that is dialed, you can move to the next stage.
This procedure is a must for me because our track has a tight slalom section on the long side opposite the main straight.
If you want to use motor timing you can add it after you're happy with the gearing (before you go to boost/turbo) because that is going to be there at all times.
Lap times don't count yet as I didn't have any boost or turbo so lost big time on the straight. The car however gets faster and faster through the really twisty bits of the track until I am happy that nobody is going to threaten my position there. This is because in the slow part of the track your car is always going to rely solely on gearing to pull through (and motor timing if you have/want any). Boost is not going to help there as is turbo. Once that is dialed, you can move to the next stage.
This procedure is a must for me because our track has a tight slalom section on the long side opposite the main straight.
If you want to use motor timing you can add it after you're happy with the gearing (before you go to boost/turbo) because that is going to be there at all times.
02-04-2010, 12:47 PM
I'll get to typing out my process this evening. I don't feel like whipping out several paragraphs on my iPod touch. lol