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Old 03-26-2008, 06:55 AM   #196
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If you're laying it up like fiberglass, no heat required. I'm sure that it's nowhere as good as the stuff they bake in vacuum ovens. Different resins will have a big effect on the end product as will the grade of carbon used.
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Old 03-26-2008, 07:29 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by Ferrarimk13 View Post
formula 1 season is crazy this year, but so far so good.

With CF, dont you brush it with resin, and then lay thoe clothes on it to absored it? do you even need heat for that, i saw it made without heat on youtube, and it was fairly simple.
hehe... I can wade in here

Basically, the key points in composite panels are;

Fabric used - Carbon is stronger/stiffer than glass, and lighter, but more expensive.

Resin System - This is the stuff that transfers the loading between fibres, so is every important, especially where the loadings on the structures are off the direction of the fibres (i.e a fibre is very good in tension, not so good in compression ). Three main types, Polyester (cheap), Vinylester, and epoxy. Epoxy is the strongest/lightest, but also most expensive.

Manufacturing route - Different routes can give different levels of laminate performance, and also different costs.

Theres three main methods of producing a composite plate.

1) is like you say, taking a layer of dry fabric, then roll resin into it (bit like paint rolling). Just keep repeating this for the number of layer (plys) required.
This is the simpliest method, but you need a lot of experience to get good laminate. Generally termed wet lamination, it can also be combined with a vacuum bag to help aid consolidation (packing down) of the fabrics, and remove voids (bubbles in the resin = v.bad). Generally most composite panels are made from this method, and the resins used are usually fairly quick curing and of a reasonable viscosity

2)Second method avaliable is resin infusion, where you lay up your complete stack of dry fabrics first, then add a vacuum to remove the air, then suck resin through. Generally gives very low void content laminates, and low resin contents, although can be difficult to set up, and generally has more waste.
Generally used in production manufacure of large parts (boat hulls, turbine blades), as it has better H&S than wet lam. Resin systems usually are a lower viscosity than wet lam, and also longer cure times.

Both those methods can be used with systems that cure at room temp, as the resin systems will be catalytical, and start to cure off (harden) once mixed. But usually adding heat will improve the strengths of the laminates.

3) Final one is pre-preg, where the fabrics already have the resin impregnated in. These are heat activated, where a part has to be laid up, vac bagged, and then heated. The heat does two things a) Lowers the viscosity of the resin in the fibres, allowing for good wet out (how the resin flows around the fibres) of the fabrics b) Activates the chemicals to cure off the resin system.
Very easy and clean to use, but usually more expensive. Also has more control over the resin contents in the laminates, and can produced good quality surface finishes. If used with an Autoclave to apply pressure (rather than vacuum), then high quality components can be produced. This is how most motorsport parts are produced.

I believe most of the carbon plates used are of a prepreg construction, usually with wovens fabrics on the outer surfaces, and UD (uni-directional) fabrics in the middle. This is from having stripped a few spare bits apart in my time

So, there's your quick guide to composites....

HiH
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(Oh and if your wondering... I work for a large composite materials manufacturer, Gurit, so this is my job
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Old 03-26-2008, 07:59 AM   #198
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One of the interviews with another team he worked for was interesting in that they said every time he'd turn his back they would add 25% to his designs

That was definitely the quote of the Malaysian grand prix! I was rolling after hearing that one.

But back on topic, I had the oppertunity to inspect a production car that our local AE shoe had. I know they have been commented on before, but there are some trick little details built into the car. The quality looked very high, and I was told it went together well with the minimum of fitting. Hopefully, I will be able to see it run soon on a track with average "club" grip levels.

And lord knows he will be doing some durability testing......

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Old 03-26-2008, 08:23 AM   #199
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wow, awesome TryHard, that was great info, thanks a lot. I watched a video and they had the fabric placed on a piece of glass, and then lathered with the epoxy, and placed that thin cloth over it, with an extra piece of glass, and a weight over it. After it dried, the side facing the glass was completely shiny, and the other side was satin finished. I dont really understand what pre-preg is, is that when its inserted into the mold and then pressed after the epoxy?
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Old 03-26-2008, 10:00 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by Ferrarimk13 View Post
wow, awesome TryHard, that was great info, thanks a lot. I watched a video and they had the fabric placed on a piece of glass, and then lathered with the epoxy, and placed that thin cloth over it, with an extra piece of glass, and a weight over it. After it dried, the side facing the glass was completely shiny, and the other side was satin finished. I dont really understand what pre-preg is, is that when its inserted into the mold and then pressed after the epoxy?
With prepreg, effectively think of a cloth thats been dipped in a resin thats a high temperature (which lowers it's viscosity), and then cooled, trapping the resin in the fabrics. The name says it all really, as it's a fabric thats PRE-imPREGnated with resin

You've pretty much got it, as they will be laid up into a mould, and then pressure applied (either by vacuum or from an autoclave), which helps to consolidate the fabric layers (plies). Heat's then applied, and the resin already trapped in the fabric flows, and then cures off, giving a nice solid laminate.

The YouTube video you describe sounds like wet lamination, using a weight to consolidate the panel rather than vacuum. Vacuum provides a more consistent force. If you want shiney surfaces both sides, it's quite easy, you just need two glass plates, and sandwich the panel between them

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Old 03-26-2008, 11:40 AM   #201
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ok kids, just never vacume bag your hand for shits and grins.. ROFLMAO
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Old 03-26-2008, 04:37 PM   #202
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that sounds like a great idea. If you wanted to make both sides shiny, you wouldnt need any cloth at all? just the fabric, and the resin, sandwiched between the glass? awesome.
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Old 03-30-2008, 09:24 AM   #203
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I finished building my R5 last week and everything went together perfectly. The quality, fit and finish of the components in the production kit is excellent.

I also had an opportunity to run a few batteries through the car at my local club track yesterday and I was VERY impressed! The handling right out of the box with the kit setup was very good and will only get better as we are able to work on setups a little bit. I think people will be very happy with the durability and handling of the 12R5.

As Mike said above, I also tested the durability of the car with a few hard hits at high speed running a 5.0 on a tight track. lol...

Chris
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Old 03-30-2008, 12:36 PM   #204
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I finished building my R5 last week and everything went together perfectly. The quality, fit and finish of the components in the production kit is excllent.

I also had an opportunity to run a few batteries through the car at my local club track yesterday and I was VERY impressed! The handling right out of the box with the kit setup was very good and will only get better as we are able to work on setups a little bit. I think people will be very happy with the durability and handling of the 12R5.

As Mike said above, I also tested the durability of the car with a few hard hits at high speed running a 5.0 on a tight track. lol...

Chris
You wouldnt happen to know if the t-bar conversion will be avalible at the release of the kit would you?
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Old 03-30-2008, 02:15 PM   #205
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I don't know exactly when it will be available, but last I heard, the t bar conversion will not be available at the initial release of the car.
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Old 03-30-2008, 03:01 PM   #206
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they are available, or you just got one from the company? sounds good, do you have any pics? lol
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Old 03-30-2008, 03:15 PM   #207
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As Mike said above, I also tested the durability of the car with a few hard hits at high speed running a 5.0 on a tight track. lol...
The car looked very, very good Chris. It carried amazing speed through the sweeper, and overall looked silky smooth, even through the doubles, and triples before the second chicane!!!!

So what was the set-up by the end of the day for the low bite club track? I am sure it will be invaluable for 12R5 racers to be able to get set-up information that pertains to more reasonable levels of grip that the average club racers experience.

Maybe it was toooo easy to drive fast? I didn't think it was possible to dump anymore...

I will have get Bill to bring a video camera next time and get some footage to put up of the car in action.

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Old 04-02-2008, 04:59 PM   #208
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now that you guys have it, do you have any pics? lol
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Old 04-04-2008, 09:28 AM   #209
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Can you confirm that it uses metric hardware?
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Old 04-04-2008, 09:47 AM   #210
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Ferrarimk13: I got my car direct from AE. Hopefully the production kits will be shipping to distributors soon. I don't have any pics of my car to post yet.

jas: Yes the car uses metric hardware everywhere except the rear axle and hubs.
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