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Old 02-13-2011, 11:35 PM   #14401
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2 Bad, you're getting some good advice and some not so good. Some of what you're going thru I fully understand. My 05 was a LWB with an Alfa Mito body and after a couple of months of struggles, the car was decent but not as good as it needed to be. The requirements for my car is that it has to be better than theirs to make up for my driving ability or lack thereof. I drove my friend, Kevin Nino's MWB 05 and it was absolutely the best handling Mini around. Came home and built an exact copy of his car with one exception. It was a disaster.

Here was the exception. My 05 has the M05 ball diff and his has the TA03 ball diff. You can drive his car any way you want, but mine with the M05 ball diff has to be driven ultra smooth or the back end steps out. Frankly, it's harder to drive than an F-1. I'm finally giving up on the M05 ball diff and going with the TA03. I've posted several times how to build it so won't do it here.

On a MWB start with a balanced set up. You know same shocks,springs, tires etc.all around. Same camber front and rear. 1-2 degrees of toe out on each side. Specific springs, oils, and blah blah blah are worthless cause we don't know the track surface, grip levels, type of track layout or track temps etc. But you sound like a veteran racer and not a total newbie so you probably knew that. Tires work the same as on a TC, but many things don't. Just don't go into an adjustment thinking it will do a certain thing. About half the time it'll do the exact opposite from a TC.

Adjusting Droop is the toughest thing a TC veteran has to adjust to. On a TC you turned the droop screw. On a Mini you disassemble the shock and change the thickness of the spacer under the piston.

Minis are neither harder or easier, just different. Mini drivers are also different. They're the friendliest, nicest, most helpful people you'd ever hope to meet----off the track. On the track they're the most competitive people around. You don't know it yet, but you've just entered a whole New World. I hope you enjoy it as much as I have over the years.
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Old 02-14-2011, 12:30 AM   #14402
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Yeah one of my local drivers (who is probably on average the fastest in the state) drives with the rear hubs reversed. He swears by it and keeps telling us to try it. And basically says with the slop of the suspension it pretty much brings the rear toe back to around zero.
I think hes been doing it for a couple of years and he also found it out by accident.

Everyone i personally know who has done it says the car handles like garbage. But we suspect it makes the car very aggressive on corner entry, which my friend says suits his driving style.

2-bad BTW yeah droop is very important as granpa said. I i figured you had already fixed that if not you need to fix the droop by putting RUBBER o-rings (not silicone, as they swell up) in the shocks. That is unless you run some of the shorter m-chassis designed shocks.
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Last edited by mangoman; 02-14-2011 at 01:05 AM.
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Old 02-14-2011, 01:14 AM   #14403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caltek1 View Post

There are also ways to get a gear diff to work very well, using some innovative ideas, however that is another story.

Hope you have better success.

Calvin.

I need to build Jason another one of these, version 3 this would be.........
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Old 02-14-2011, 01:20 AM   #14404
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fleety,

There are other alternates for a oil gear diff for a mini, without having to perform major surgery.

However I am not willing to share just yet, as I want to prove to myself that it will work.

Only required minimal shims to fit. The proof will be on the track. I am just not sure it will take the stress of the BL system.

I also need to get some thicker oil, like treackle.

It is also not the Sakura FWD oil gear diff which is the incorrect pitch.

Later,

Calvin.
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Old 02-14-2011, 01:22 AM   #14405
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Guys
Could you please advise that how to seal gear diff.

I understand that it should be sealed with putty/poxy.

But for the outdrive hole how can we seal it.

Ragards
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Old 02-14-2011, 01:28 AM   #14406
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Showbiz,

The standard gear diff was not designed to be an oil gear diff. The standard gear diff has problems with the outdrives not being able to take a o ring to make the diff not leak. The idea is to use either Tamiya anti-wear grease on the gears or Tamiya diff grease.

I have not tried to convert one of these, though I'm sure others have and have had some sort of success.

If my post has mis-lead you I apologise, however I am modifying a different oil gear diff for use in my mini.

When I have tested it and if it works I will pass on then. No point saying something if it fails to work.

Regards,

Calvin.
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Old 02-14-2011, 01:40 AM   #14407
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Originally Posted by Showbiz View Post
Guys
Could you please advise that how to seal gear diff.

I understand that it should be sealed with putty/poxy.

But for the outdrive hole how can we seal it.

Ragards
as far as i am aware you cant

CA glue around the edges and screws but the outdrives it will leak a bit.
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Old 02-14-2011, 01:43 AM   #14408
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caltek1 View Post
fleety,

There are other alternates for a oil gear diff for a mini, without having to perform major surgery.

However I am not willing to share just yet, as I want to prove to myself that it will work.

Only required minimal shims to fit. The proof will be on the track. I am just not sure it will take the stress of the BL system.

I also need to get some thicker oil, like treackle.

It is also not the Sakura FWD oil gear diff which is the incorrect pitch.

Later,

Calvin.
Hi Calvin,

Mine is based on the standard diff. One of my sloppier and fastest builds is in Clayton' s car at present.
I had too much torque steer with heavy oil (+ more) , but that was on the gooped track. Jason got a different blend , which was better, but still too tight.
I'm considering getting another mini , now that the Windsor surface is friendlier........

Fleety .

Last edited by fleetmaster; 02-14-2011 at 01:59 AM.
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Old 02-14-2011, 03:02 AM   #14409
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Hi 2-bad,

I use white (hard) springs in the rear. Front tires hardly lift during cornering, minimizing the diffing out effect of a loose (soft) diff. If you see the video, the M06 was not really gaining ground on corner exit on my daughter's M05 with M05 ball diff.

I also use the gear and Ta03 diff. Lap times very similar.

You might get different advice from different people. It's all good as setup depends on track layout, surface, driving style, rules, etc. To each his own.

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Old 02-14-2011, 04:26 AM   #14410
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Thank you Calvin / Wylie

Yesterday at my local track, I saw a incredible speed M05 and it can bite FF tail from time to time.

This M05 was modified a lot even new servo position.

Found that they using gear diff with 50000 oil for the consistency reason.

But unfortunately, I forgot to asking how to seal gear diff, just note that they used epoxy to seal.

However, I have got some tip from this pro and will share to you when proved
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Old 02-14-2011, 04:43 AM   #14411
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Looks like I'm on a steep learning curve, eh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Granpa View Post
Here was the exception. My 05 has the M05 ball diff and his has the TA03 ball diff.
yes I heard the M05 diff was ordinary. I've been told my loan car has the diff out of a MantaRay. Not sure how different that is to the TA05.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Granpa View Post
On a Mini you disassemble the shock and change the thickness of the spacer under the piston.
Yepp, just like off-road shocks. But are ppl using more or less rubber o-rings to adjust? That doesn't seem accurate enough? I would have used alloy spacers.

Looking around setups most seem to be around the 55mm - 57mm shock length, yes?

Thanks to everyone for the advice... much appreciated
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Old 02-14-2011, 05:13 AM   #14412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2-Bad View Post
Looks like I'm on a steep learning curve, eh?
yes I heard the M05 diff was ordinary. I've been told my loan car has the diff out of a MantaRay. Not sure how different that is to the TA05.

Yepp, just like off-road shocks. But are ppl using more or less rubber o-rings to adjust? That doesn't seem accurate enough? I would have used alloy spacers.

Looking around setups most seem to be around the 55mm - 57mm shock length, yes?

Thanks to everyone for the advice... much appreciated
Hi 2-Bad,

May I stick my oar in?

Your issues with the M-05 are fundamentally the same as mine were. It took a few parts, a few adjustments, a bit of thinking and a bit of luck to get it running right.

Although I am not as experienced with Mini as a lot of people on this thread, I did manage to put my Mini on pole at a round of the CWIC, possibly the most competitive indoor Mini series in the UK.

Steering - It's rubbish out of the box on a standard M-05. Probably not so great on a Pro M-05 either. A high torque servo saver is essential, and another part that I feel is equally important is the aluminium steering posts. The standard plastic posts are a poor fit in the steering crank bearings, the aluminium ones are not, and with the addition of some shims, all the unwanted free play is taken out of that part of the system.

I personally always ran with the plastic cranks and rack. If my kit is anything to go by, these parts are prone to a mis-moulding that can bind them up. A little work with a reamer solves that. If funding permits, I would replace them with Tamiya aluminium.

Diff - One thing is certain - building the gear diff as the kit suggests doesn't work. It is far too "open" and you lose loads of corner speed. Personally speaking I don't like the feel of an excessively tight (almost spool-like) diff because it affects the car in a straightline and makes it feel grabby out of the corners. But then again, I know of people that love the almost-locked diff.

I have tried thick greases and oils in the gear diff in the past. It feels nice... for about three races. Then it needs rebuilding with a new application of grease. For that reason, I have gone to the ball diff. It is consistent. I use the M-05 diff, and have no problems, but I don't run it as tight as some like. If you like a really tight diff then the TA-03 or Manta Ray diff may suit you better (they are the same basic design but the TA-03 diff is lighter). I have built my M-05 diff as a normal diff and tightened it up enough that I don't notice it "diffing out".

I now race the Xevo Triumph but have retained the M-05 diff.

Suspension - Springs and oils don't seem to make as much difference as you might expect. Tyres are far more dominant on a Mini's handling than the suspension is (unlike a touring car). I was happiest on blue front/yellow rear on my Super Mini CVA's with #600/#500 oils and the one-hole piston. But CVA's don't really damp and wear out quite quickly so I would recommend TRF shocks if you can afford them.

Droop is something that is overlooked on these cars. I always ran the car so that there was always a little droop - it's easy to start pre-loading the springs on these cars and they start to become very edgy then. Ride height was a shade lower on the front than at the rear (arms just below level vs. arms level), shock length was the standard CVA super mini with the 6mm spacer inside, I think I ran the 2mm spring clips front and rear, maybe 3mm at the front. If I was to change the shock length, I would take 0.5-1mm out of the rear shock for a bit more rear droop. This is running 55D Sweep tyres by the way.

Grip Roll - definitely one of the car's vices on carpet and with my driving. Superglueing the front sidewalls made far more difference than any tyre combination - if anything, the large stagger of compounds front/rear (40/25) felt even worse. I have found a good carpet setup on Sweep 25s all round with glued fronts.

Hope this helps rather than confuses. At the end of the day, there are as many mini setups as there are mini drivers, but getting the car to run in a straight line is pretty universal, and stopping the diff from unloading mid corner is equally important. The rest is personal preference.
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Old 02-14-2011, 05:32 AM   #14413
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Suspension - Springs and oils don't seem to make as much difference as you might expect.
hmm i beg to differ on that.

not having the right oil will result on either being at the front of the field or being the car getting lapped

can make a huge difference on lap times.
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Old 02-14-2011, 07:05 AM   #14414
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After practicing with my SWB M05 for the past month, I decided to try a MWB configuration this past Saturday. We have a TCS event in March, and only a few local guys have any interested in Tamiya Mini, so most of my wheel time is practicing with the TT01 cars running Red Dot motors.

I would not have thought it possible, but my fastest laps were easily more than a second faster (consistently) with the MWB.

The SWB setup tended to lift both inside wheels in the sweeper, and in some of the chicanes. It didn't roll over, just lifted quite high. OTOH, the MWB remains virtually flat. The SWB was fast down the straight, but a handful through the turns because of its twitchy nature. The MWB is still fast in the straight, but in the twisty areas of the track it's almost docile yet nimble, and felt more like a TC. Although, everyone seems to recommend the Swift body I went with the Fiat 500. I like the way it looks and I'm satisfied with its driving characteristics.

Right now I'm running with the MO5 ball diff on my Pro chassis. I tried the TA03 ball diff, but the M05 unit felt better to me. Our track is very grippy asphalt, and the M05 diff worked great set not to tight. My steering setup still consists of the plastic pieces. I have ordered the alloy bits, but they haven't arrived yet. I'm able to put the car where I want it on the track, so I can't imagine that the alloy bits are going to make a significant difference, but we'll see.

With less than a month before the big event, I think that I can eek-out maybe a half second faster lap times which I'm confident will be competitive for the TCS event.

Unfortunately, it's almost certain my M05 will go back on the shelf after TCS since I won't have anyone to race with.

Last edited by Geppetto; 02-14-2011 at 07:22 AM.
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Old 02-14-2011, 07:21 AM   #14415
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hmm i beg to differ on that.

not having the right oil will result on either being at the front of the field or being the car getting lapped

can make a huge difference on lap times.
So what happens if you have the right oil ?

According to your explanation the wrong oil will result in either:

1. Being at the front of the field

2. Being the car getting lapped.


Personally, I don't think damper oil makes that much difference in a mini because there simply is not enough travel in the suspension.

In a touring car I find that damper oil is critical.
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