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Old 07-20-2007, 08:54 AM   #4486
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Well copy that one for the front!!!!
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Old 07-20-2007, 09:10 AM   #4487
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See...this is where I'd say Mini racing goes off the rails. Adjustable whatever (camber in this case) is only an "advantage" until the second guy gets it. From that point on all that has been done is you've raised the cost of racing (in terms of kit cost, upgrade cost, knowledge cost, time cost). What you have NOT done is make racing better. And if you're not racing (just "bashing") you REALLY don't need it.

The beauty of the Minis is their "set it and forget it" nature. Complicate the s*%# out of 'em and you destroy the beauty that is Mini. If multiple adjustment is what you want there are other classes out there for you. Heck, perhaps you've heard of those Touring Cars? Tamiya even makes 'em.

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Old 07-20-2007, 09:21 AM   #4488
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See...this is where I'd say Mini racing goes off the rails. Adjustable whatever (camber in this case) is only an "advantage" until the second guy gets it. From that point on all that has been done is you've raised the cost of racing (in terms of kit cost, upgrade cost, knowledge cost, time cost). What you have NOT done is make racing better. And if you're not racing (just "bashing") you REALLY don't need it.

The beauty of the Minis is their "set it and forget it" nature. Complicate the s*%# out of 'em and you destroy the beauty that is Mini. If multiple adjustment is what you want there are other classes out there for you. Heck, perhaps you've heard of those Touring Cars? Tamiya even makes 'em.

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Racing is racing and to beat the next guy in line you do what it takes, you pay the money to get faster, you tweak and tune your arse off in order to gain and advantage. It doesn't matter that Mini's are "set it and forget it" --that doesn't help you win races.
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Old 07-20-2007, 09:31 AM   #4489
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Again, and I'm speaking sloooooowly.

There are classes where the ongoing escalation is part of the game...and almost invariably ruins them. Same has been true in "real" racing for decades.

Mini is like the Formula V of real racing. Keep it simple, keep it inexpensive, and if you want to go "faster" there is plenty of opportunity to move up to another class. The reason Formula V has been successful for something like 45 years is that there are a huge number of racers who have been doing it for years specifically because it's simple and COMPARATIVELY inexpensive.

Further, as I pointed out, ANY tweak or "hot part" on ANY car is ONLY an "advantage" until a second guy in your race group gets one. AND IT DID NOT IMPROVE THE RACING. I spent WAY too many years racing and have seen it over and over. But the "overacheivers" never get it...it won't be any different here.
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Old 07-20-2007, 10:24 AM   #4490
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Again, and I'm speaking sloooooowly.

There are classes where the ongoing escalation is part of the game...and almost invariably ruins them. Same has been true in "real" racing for decades.

Mini is like the Formula V of real racing. Keep it simple, keep it inexpensive, and if you want to go "faster" there is plenty of opportunity to move up to another class. The reason Formula V has been successful for something like 45 years is that there are a huge number of racers who have been doing it for years specifically because it's simple and COMPARATIVELY inexpensive.

Further, as I pointed out, ANY tweak or "hot part" on ANY car is ONLY an "advantage" until a second guy in your race group gets one. AND IT DID NOT IMPROVE THE RACING. I spent WAY too many years racing and have seen it over and over. But the "overacheivers" never get it...it won't be any different here.
I get what you are saying...so you can say it faster now....but I know that in mini we won't go "faster" with everyone following the Tamiya rules. That in itself is why I enjoy it, cause I dont' have to buy titanium this or carbon that. I do however love finding the ways to make the car better that are "legal" and the camber links made of random tamiya parts is just another way to have fun with it, the little things count and while I doubt it will add 2 laps to my cout, it might just make it to where I am a little more competitive
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Old 07-20-2007, 10:56 AM   #4491
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I do however love finding the ways to make the car better that are "legal" and the camber links made of random tamiya parts is just another way to have fun with it
Hmmm...

Perhaps you'd like to describe these random Tamiya parts vs. "legality"?

Enquiring minds want to know.
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Old 07-20-2007, 11:08 AM   #4492
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Hmmm...

Perhaps you'd like to describe these random Tamiya parts vs. "legality"?

Enquiring minds want to know.
See #1 & 14 under "all vehicles" Tamiya Rules

now go take a look at the rear "camber link" on the M03R- this can be made of Tamiya spare parts...forgive fo I do not have the exact part numbers but can find them if you wish
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Old 07-20-2007, 11:54 AM   #4493
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The exact part numbers are: 50797 adjuster, 9805684 3x12mm screw, 50579 step screw, 53539 5.5x.5mm spacer, 53640 5mm ball connector nut, and 53642 ball connector.
I installed this set-up on the front of my M04 to try to improve the vehicles handling.
I had to substitute the 9805684 3x12mm screws for 9804194 3x10mm screws and cut 3mm off the 53642 ball connectors and not use the 53539 5.5x.5mm spacers. This modification added close to 1 negative degree to the front camber.
As for formula V racing, there are always little modifications legal or not done to those vehicle to create an advantage, people my turn a blind eye to it but in reality the front runners are usually the persons who haven't gotten caught & are too slick to get caught cheating.
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Old 07-20-2007, 11:58 AM   #4494
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Here is a picture of the modification.
Attached Thumbnails
Tamiya mini cooper-dsc01165.jpg  
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Old 07-20-2007, 12:47 PM   #4495
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See...this is where I'd say Mini racing goes off the rails. Adjustable whatever (camber in this case) is only an "advantage" until the second guy gets it. From that point on all that has been done is you've raised the cost of racing (in terms of kit cost, upgrade cost, knowledge cost, time cost). What you have NOT done is make racing better. And if you're not racing (just "bashing") you REALLY don't need it.

The beauty of the Minis is their "set it and forget it" nature. Complicate the s*%# out of 'em and you destroy the beauty that is Mini. If multiple adjustment is what you want there are other classes out there for you. Heck, perhaps you've heard of those Touring Cars? Tamiya even makes 'em.

Scottrik
I agree 100%. Could not have said it better myself.
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Old 07-20-2007, 01:38 PM   #4496
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottrik View Post
See...this is where I'd say Mini racing goes off the rails. Adjustable whatever (camber in this case) is only an "advantage" until the second guy gets it. From that point on all that has been done is you've raised the cost of racing (in terms of kit cost, upgrade cost, knowledge cost, time cost). What you have NOT done is make racing better. And if you're not racing (just "bashing") you REALLY don't need it.

The beauty of the Minis is their "set it and forget it" nature. Complicate the s*%# out of 'em and you destroy the beauty that is Mini. If multiple adjustment is what you want there are other classes out there for you. Heck, perhaps you've heard of those Touring Cars? Tamiya even makes 'em.

Scottrik
exactly right, and why we see more folk running mini (cheap fun)..as TC declines.
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Old 07-20-2007, 02:04 PM   #4497
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Originally Posted by rcarmchl View Post
See #1 & 14 under "all vehicles" Tamiya Rules
I would argue (and, I'd bet, win) that you are mis-reading #14. They aren't allowing different or modified camber links, they are allowing o-rings to be used to minimize slop.

Now, I would direct you to #5:

"Any Tamiya Hop-Op Option and spare part is allowed as long as it is used in the way it was designed, and on the vehicle it was designed for. Except for the GT1 class, it is strictly forbidden to cut, mill or lighten the chassis. It is strictly forbidden to re-engineer or modify the car in any way other than with Tamiya Hop-Ups. (This applies to all classes)"

...and question whether the parts you are using are Tamiya "parts" or Tamiya "Hop-Ups" (I believe there is a difference in treatment) AND whether they would be interpreted to having been used "the way it was designed" or "on the vehicle it was designed for". Or, for that matter, if what is being described (seems the other fellow was mentioning cutting, etc) is "re-engineering".

Then I'd go look at #17 and #18. Pretty clear...they are INTENTIONALLY broad.

All this is moot if you're not running in TCS events but I'd argue, again, that the club really isn't serving you if what you're building and getting to practice with wouldn't be acceptable if members wanted to go race TCS.

And my point remains, NONE of it "improves" racing. It just makes it "faster". And "faster" classes already exist where the participants can modify in an unlimited manner.
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Old 07-20-2007, 02:04 PM   #4498
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Hmmm...

Perhaps you'd like to describe these random Tamiya parts vs. "legality"?

Enquiring minds want to know.
Inquiring minds might notice that the M03R has adjustable links on the rear out of the box... although, i didnt use mine, just slapped on the regular links.
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Old 07-20-2007, 02:11 PM   #4499
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As for formula V racing, there are always little modifications legal or not done to those vehicle to create an advantage, people my turn a blind eye to it but in reality the front runners are usually the persons who haven't gotten caught & are too slick to get caught cheating.
Yup...that's what the people who lose ALWAYS say, regardless the form of racing. I don't know if you've ever been to the SCCA Run-Offs, but that tech shed is manned by guys who a) know what they're looking for, and b) are not shy at all about tossing a car for seemingly very minor deviation from spec.

But no, very few people in racing anywhere (particularly at amateur level) have EVER been out-driven or out-prepared. They are always out-spent and out-cheated. Just ask em...
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Old 07-20-2007, 02:14 PM   #4500
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Inquiring minds might notice that the M03R has adjustable links on the rear out of the box... although, i didnt use mine, just slapped on the regular links.
"E-nquiring" is a joking take-off on the old National Enquirer ad campaign. Sorry, I agree it is an obtuse reference. Especially since I usually am the one bemoaning the fact the general spelling and grammar online is so attrocious.

Yes, I'd not question that the adjustable links on the rear have been "let out of the bag" with the M03R, but that doesn't look like what these guys are talking about.
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