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Old 06-20-2014, 02:18 PM   #21376
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17.5 ?? you mean the 21.5 motor for the TCS MINI?
Apologies yes thats what i meant. WAY too many variables, its crazy.
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Old 06-20-2014, 02:22 PM   #21377
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No problem. It's been great for me and even though people are sometimes concerned that one BL might be faster than another, the performance gaps are much narrower than they were with silver cans.

Funny story: Do you remember Brad Greenslade? He used to race with us at Karz when we ran silver cans. His car was an absolute monster - completely blew away everything else on the track week after week. He claimed that he just stuffed his car in a cardboard box at the end of the day and chucked it in the garage when he got home. He claimed to have never, ever touched anything on the car. Ran it just as he bought. There was a lot of speculation that he was some kind of master of motor tuning and he had us all fooled with his low maintenance at. Turns out, he was telling the truth.

I remember when Brad crashed his car one day, after racing it for a few years, and had to take it apart. Several people gathered around to see what sort of secrets his car held. The first and most obvious was the gearbox full of carpet fluff and chunks of plastic that had been circulating around in it since it was built. It was packed with crud. The gears were black, greasy and chipped. I had a look at his motor while it was out. It was the filthiest, gnarliest piece of junk I'd ever held in my hands, with the exception of some really old, broken sewage pipe. (Don't go in to plumbing. It's a sticky profession. (Curtis))

The bottom line is there were no secrets. Everything about the car was the antithesis of what we preach here. The motor was simply freakishly powerful and fast out of the box. There's no real point to this story, other than to remind people to not take it so seriously. It comes down to skill, luck and sweat. If you have two out of three, you might win.

IRRC the motor that comes in the mini wasn't TCS legal... Something to do with a different mabuchi PN than the actual TCS motor.
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Old 06-20-2014, 03:07 PM   #21378
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From the recent posts, some are unaware, that the motors for TCS Mini racing were rpm limited to 18,750. Most motors, except for an occasional "dud" were within a few hundred rpm of that. Jim, your buddies motor wouldn't have passed tech. At the Finals, handout motors were used.

In spite of rumors to the contrary, I really don't have any objections to the conversion of Minis to B/L power for my own personal situation. My objections were primarily for those starting with Mini or racing on a smaller budget than mine.

My howls of protest were against the "propaganda" that the motors would be more equal. Tell that to the guy who has a Novak or a Reedy. That it would be cheaper. That would cause some consternation with the guy who purchased a couple of motors that aren't competitive. That the motors couldn't be "tinkered" with. Tuning rotors, timing plates, and so on.

For my Canadian and Australian friends, who are a bit complacent with their single motor/esc combos, you do realize there is a way to get those motors to run faster don't you????? From rumors I've heard, some in Australia have figured it out.
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Old 06-20-2014, 03:11 PM   #21379
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For my Canadian and Australian friends, who are a bit complacent with their single motor/esc combos, you do realize there is a way to get those motors to run faster don't you????? From rumors I've heard, some in Australia have figured it out.
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Old 06-20-2014, 04:21 PM   #21380
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EDIT: Rant deleted. Nevermind. Just shut up and race.
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Old 06-20-2014, 07:40 PM   #21381
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Thanks for the help guys. Going off to have a good read of that tips thread. Might be a whils
Skip the stuff before 2010 or so. Too much voodoo stuff, much of it BS. Just pay attention to the Break in stuff and the maintenance posts. There's a guy, rccardr, whose full of good info.
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Old 06-20-2014, 08:45 PM   #21382
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I'm with you Jim. There is a HUGE difference between using a motor that is a lottery on how fast it will be and knowingly cheating. Since up in Western Canada we switched from Slivercans to a spec brushless combo there is complete parity. I know when I lose or win that it has nothing to do with what is in the car but how I drove and setup it up. Why Tamiya didn't come up with a cheap spec sensorless combo is beyond me.

Cheaters are going to cheat. I have never heard or seen it in Western Canada in mini. Please don't spread rumor about our series if you have never run or seen it.
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Old 06-20-2014, 09:49 PM   #21383
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I'm with you Jim. There is a HUGE difference between using a motor that is a lottery on how fast it will be and knowingly cheating. Since up in Western Canada we switched from Slivercans to a spec brushless combo there is complete parity. I know when I lose or win that it has nothing to do with what is in the car but how I drove and setup it up. Why Tamiya didn't come up with a cheap spec sensorless combo is beyond me.

Cheaters are going to cheat. I have never heard or seen it in Western Canada in mini. Please don't spread rumor about our series if you have never run or seen it.
Actually, Jim and I are old friends, but disagree on some things on occasion. Nothing personal. I've stated on more than one occasion that what you've done is about as good as you can do as far as achieving parity. The point being made was that racers are racers and someone will figure out how to squeeze a few extra rpms out of the motor.

I'm going to deal in a hypothetical here. Let's say, Henry, figures out what to do to make his motor go faster and wins the race. Now is that "cheating"???? Depends on what he did right???? What if you can't tell what he did. Is that still cheating???? Or is it that Henry is a smart dude???? At what point does cleverness become cheating????

So what do you do with this Henry guy????? Make him buy another motor???? The following week that new motor may be fast also. What if Henry won cause his set up was better or he drove better. If the guys you race are anything like the guys I race, someone is trying to get a little more out of the motor.
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Old 06-20-2014, 10:08 PM   #21384
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Maybe that is the real problem.

You might think people here are complacent, but the climate is friendly and open. Yeah, there is one every now and again who tries to cheat but we first of all don't care much, and secondly people can tell. Most of the time it happens involuntarily (people unaware of regulations).
If people rewrite the software you will be able to tell, if people modify the motor you will be able to tell. Nobody goes fast all of a sudden just like that.

Legislating to accept any 21.5 without specific descriptions of what rotor/stator, etc. is supposed to be in the motor is indeed a bad decision, but even then, a few posts back people have confirmed the differences are smaller than when they ran silvercans.

Monkey racing raised an interesting point a page back about minis and maintenance. I remember Tony and the gang had some similar reports from their experience. Maybe you guys over there take things way too seriously.

Maybe going back to handout motors would be the way forward.
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Old 06-20-2014, 11:41 PM   #21385
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You raise a good point Granpa, but so far with the brushless setup there is no voodoo that anyone here has found that made their motor into a "red dot".

Myself, being on the rules committee for our series, enjoy looking at the "grey" areas. We don't run TCS rules more anything goes within reason. It gives the racer the chance for ingenuity but can be copied by anyone else. Plus in the long run by not using Tamiya hop ups it does save the racer money.

Mini has more rules than touring mod. How do you know where the line is if you don't cross it every now and then
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Old 06-20-2014, 11:45 PM   #21386
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Hi ,

I have M03 Mini Coopers and Fiat Abarth ..... someone told me to change car to M05 because he saw me get traction rolling in some corners.

( However, after reading some pages from this thread, .... Now I know some tricks how to reduce traction rolling syndrome with M03 cars )

What car have faster lap times in the track ?

M03 still competitive racing mini ?
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Old 06-21-2014, 12:10 AM   #21387
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The M03 is very competitive. Look at last year's TCS winners!
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Old 06-21-2014, 10:43 AM   #21388
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Originally Posted by asw7576 View Post
Hi ,

I have M03 Mini Coopers and Fiat Abarth ..... someone told me to change car to M05 because he saw me get traction rolling in some corners.

( However, after reading some pages from this thread, .... Now I know some tricks how to reduce traction rolling syndrome with M03 cars )

What car have faster lap times in the track ?

M03 still competitive racing mini ?
The 03 is still a great platform to race with
If you're traction rolling check your setup on the chassis
that's probably half the problem right there

As to your question as to what car has the faster lap times,
The answer to that one is easy
The car with the best driver
The key to fast lap times is a good setup and practice, practice and
Some more practice

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Old 06-21-2014, 09:32 PM   #21389
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Originally Posted by Madulla View Post
You raise a good point Granpa, but so far with the brushless setup there is no voodoo that anyone here has found that made their motor into a "red dot".

Myself, being on the rules committee for our series, enjoy looking at the "grey" areas. We don't run TCS rules more anything goes within reason. It gives the racer the chance for ingenuity but can be copied by anyone else. Plus in the long run by not using Tamiya hop ups it does save the racer money.

Mini has more rules than touring mod. How do you know where the line is if you don't cross it every now and then
Thank you. I can understand why you understood the point I was trying to make. At what point does ingenuity and cleverness become cheating???? How do you legislate against "Henry" when you don't know what the F he did???? How is that fair to Henry, but then how is it fair to the rest to allow Henry to participate???? Seems like the tech guys for the club have a real dilemma. Let's just hope that Henry never shows up.

Fortunately for your club, you're not taking the attitude that if your car is a lot faster than mine, you must be cheating.
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Old 06-21-2014, 10:14 PM   #21390
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Maybe that is the real problem.

You might think people here are complacent, but the climate is friendly and open. Yeah, there is one every now and again who tries to cheat but we first of all don't care much, and secondly people can tell. Most of the time it happens involuntarily (people unaware of regulations).
If people rewrite the software you will be able to tell, if people modify the motor you will be able to tell. Nobody goes fast all of a sudden just like that.

Legislating to accept any 21.5 without specific descriptions of what rotor/stator, etc. is supposed to be in the motor is indeed a bad decision, but even then, a few posts back people have confirmed the differences are smaller than when they ran silvercans.

Monkey racing raised an interesting point a page back about minis and maintenance. I remember Tony and the gang had some similar reports from their experience. Maybe you guys over there take things way too seriously.

Maybe going back to handout motors would be the way forward.
Nah, running with a group that's competitive, creative, constantly working to improve, isn't the or a problem. It's exciting, stimulating and challenging. Not a "cheater" in the bunch, but we know the rules backwards and forwards. And we're not above pushing them to limit.

I know from personal experience that someone can go fast just like that. When I first started running with the Mini Mafia, I followed common sense and copied the set ups etc, that most were running. It just wasn't working for me and getting lapped is no fun. FOR ANYONE. So I went to a LWB, soft springs, stiffer spring in the rear, rear roll bar, etc which no one was doing at the time. I went from getting lapped to running with the faster guys and running faster than some of the faster guys. Using your criteria, I was Cheating cause no one goes faster just like that.

The people you've quoted confirming that the 21.5 motors under the present 21.5 motor rules are are closer than the rpm limited Silvercans are either delusional or very inexperienced. While it is true that motors of the same make are very similar in performance, there are huge differences between the makes. The Mini Mafia group at the Tamiya USA track have tested almost all of the motors available. We've found that some are severely handicapped in speed in a Mini, even though they work just fine in classes that allow gearing changes.
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