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Old 02-04-2014, 06:41 AM   #20341
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Originally Posted by CraigMBA View Post
Maybe Novak can come out with special "TCS SPEC" end bells with different stickers......
They do have a special endcap for classes with a set timing restriction based on the sticker:

http://teamnovak.com/products/index....roducts_id=162

I have bought three over the years. They come with the sticker NOT attached so you can make them conform to the timing setups of your other motors. You know how some motors are already 30 degrees at the 0 mark? Well with this upgrade kit you can normalize all your motors to the same zero point, so the edge of the sticker all means the same thing.....

Personally, I prefer 0 to be 0, but if you need the other way around, well that is up to you....
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Old 02-04-2014, 07:01 AM   #20342
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Originally Posted by jasons56 View Post
They do have a special endcap for classes with a set timing restriction based on the sticker:

http://teamnovak.com/products/index....roducts_id=162

I have bought three over the years. They come with the sticker NOT attached so you can make them conform to the timing setups of your other motors. You know how some motors are already 30 degrees at the 0 mark? Well with this upgrade kit you can normalize all your motors to the same zero point, so the edge of the sticker all means the same thing.....

Personally, I prefer 0 to be 0, but if you need the other way around, well that is up to you....
Thanks, Jason, I didn't know about this.

Again I'll state that we should have an RPM (or kV) limit for brushless motors, just like there is for brushed. Maybe the TCS rules don't have it at the moment, but if we decide here on RCTech, and have several groups across the country adopt the rule, then maybe it would be a good example for TCS to follow.

I'll make the first suggestion: limit kV to 2400. That's a little slower than brushed, but more importantly, is pretty safe for most 21.5 motors.
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Old 02-04-2014, 07:15 AM   #20343
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Here is the biggest problem about this motor debate IMHO.

For probably 75 percent of the racers in this class (on a club level), it doesn't make any difference whatsover. And those of us getting so hung up on it are doing a disservice to those reading these posts and assuming the reason why they are getting beat at their track has anything to do with the couple tenths here and there that we are debating.

With the exception of some of the really competitive TCS races, I would say MOST of the cars I see are giving up a entire second to setup and driving line. What is sad, these are often the guys getting so bent about motor rules when they get dominated by someone that has it figured out.

So, if you are a second behind pace - don't get depressed about the motor you don't own. Keep those tires clean and prepped, super glue the sidewalls where needed, and get that damn servo saver fixed so you can keep the thing straight on the back stretch...

Almost every time I try to help someone struggling, I can't even drive their car...

And it almost always comes down to servo linkage and super glue....
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Last edited by jasons56; 02-04-2014 at 07:37 AM.
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Old 02-04-2014, 07:44 AM   #20344
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Of course, I KNOW people often sandbag. Amazing how some guys seem to magically pick up 1/2 second when a true challenge comes on the track...

Maybe its just a byproduct of the bad economy that we have past national champs and other serious drivers so interested in what should have been the only class for the true sportsman at the track?
Are we referring to anybody I know?

I don't hide the fact that I'm sandbagging; I tell people that I am. I try to adjust the car so it can't turn the fastest lap in any heat, then drive as best I can. I want to race with somebody-- anybody.

I also don't hide the fact that I'm much slower than I was when I was younger. Plus, I'm no longer serious about racing!

Although it's not the subject of this thread, maybe we should start a Breakout class in Omaha. PM me if you are interested.
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Last edited by howardcano; 02-04-2014 at 08:59 AM.
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Old 02-04-2014, 08:59 AM   #20345
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Originally Posted by jasons56 View Post
Here is the biggest problem about this motor debate IMHO.

For probably 75 percent of the racers in this class (on a club level), it doesn't make any difference whatsover. And those of us getting so hung up on it are doing a disservice to those reading these posts and assuming the reason why they are getting beat at their track has anything to do with the couple tenths here and there that we are debating.

With the exception of some of the really competitive TCS races, I would say MOST of the cars I see are giving up a entire second to setup and driving line. What is sad, these are often the guys getting so bent about motor rules when they get dominated by someone that has it figured out.

So, if you are a second behind pace - don't get depressed about the motor you don't own. Keep those tires clean and prepped, super glue the sidewalls where needed, and get that damn servo saver fixed so you can keep the thing straight on the back stretch...

Almost every time I try to help someone struggling, I can't even drive their car...

And it almost always comes down to servo linkage and super glue....
Interesting. Doc Mertes, of Red Dot fame, used to give the same advice. It was BS then and it's BS now. If you want to be competitive in TCS Mini racing, at least in my locale, you will have a good car, driver and MOTOR.

I'm sorry if I'm doing anyone a disservice, but MOTORS do count. Even during the Silvercan days, GOOD motor guys were winning the races. Most of the complaints were primarily about the expense and the way the rules are written. Your post on the Novak end bell is a perfect example of that. Now to me, that's another added cost and an advocacy of "cheating" by fudging the label. Incidentally, that would probably be caught in tech.
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Old 02-04-2014, 09:09 AM   #20346
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I don't think it was the 'best' choice, but we all have to live with it for this year.

I have yet to see a brushless that's faster in the corners. Most of them only have an advantage at the end of the straight. My 21.5 will accelerate for 10-15ft longer than a mabuchi.


How long does a $85 motor last? How long does a $15 mabuchi last?


That's all I have to add
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Old 02-04-2014, 09:22 AM   #20347
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With all this talk about the issues with brushless, I have to ask: Are brushed motors no longer allowed? Why not just run with silvercans until the more "Financially able" racers do all the leg work and find the "best" motors, and how long they last.
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Old 02-04-2014, 09:28 AM   #20348
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Are we referring to anybody I know?

I don't hide the fact that I'm sandbagging; I tell people that I am. I try to adjust the car so it can't turn the fastest lap in any heat, then drive as best I can. I want to race with somebody-- anybody.

I also don't hide the fact that I'm much slower than I was when I was younger. Plus, I'm no longer serious about racing!

Although it's not the subject of this thread, maybe we should start a Breakout class in Omaha. PM me if you are interested.
Howard, you are the best example of sandbagging for all the right reasons!

I just think its sad that racers of the caliber we see in this class, often feel like they can't afford to compete in other classes. It's the age old challenge to any spec class. Everyone wants to race it because it is affordable, fun, and has good racing. Then everyone wants to win.....

I've always raced it at TCS because I don't have any other kind of Tamiya car and it is the perfect class for my son. And it is a blast to run with the ringers that come out!

The only down side, having all us relatively fast guys running the class discourages the people for which this is an excellent stepping stone into competitive racing.

Howard, stop calling yourself slow..... You've been top three too many times to claim that!
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Old 02-04-2014, 09:30 AM   #20349
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Originally Posted by pizzaboy192 View Post
With all this talk about the issues with brushless, I have to ask: Are brushed motors no longer allowed? Why not just run with silvercans until the more "Financially able" racers do all the leg work and find the "best" motors, and how long they last.
For local racing that's a good possibility. I ran brushed at the last Omaha series race, and was almost perfectly matched against the fastest brushless runner. Your results may vary.
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Old 02-04-2014, 09:36 AM   #20350
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For local racing that's a good possibility. I ran brushed at the last Omaha series race, and was almost perfectly matched against the fastest brushless runner. Your results may vary.
I'll have to see what results I get then. I have a few silvercans that I got from a local racer, along with my Trinity SlotMachineII that is supposedly ROAR approved and since I replaced the brushes it's been lightning fast for it's age and abuse it's been through. I know it's not TCS legal, but it is legal at my local track, and it's been a blast to race with. I'll see if I can bum a brushless setup off a friend who can't race due to a new addition to the family, and see what my M03 does.
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Old 02-04-2014, 09:37 AM   #20351
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This is the best, most accurate thing written about mini ever!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasons56
It's the age old challenge to any spec class. Everyone wants to race it because it is affordable, fun, and has good racing. Then everyone wants to win.....
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Old 02-04-2014, 09:38 AM   #20352
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Howard, you are the best example of sandbagging for all the right reasons!

I just think its sad that racers of the caliber we see in this class, often feel like they can't afford to compete in other classes. It's the age old challenge to any spec class. Everyone wants to race it because it is affordable, fun, and has good racing. Then everyone wants to win.....

I've always raced it at TCS because I don't have any other kind of Tamiya car and it is the perfect class for my son. And it is a blast to run with the ringers that come out!

The only down side, having all us relatively fast guys running the class discourages the people for which this is an excellent stepping stone into competitive racing.

Howard, stop calling yourself slow..... You've been top three too many times to claim that!
Imagine how fast I used to be! These days, I do fine in the slower classes. I fall down the pecking order as the cars get faster.

There is a very simple solution to the Beginner's Conundrum:

Breakout Racing: The Ultimate Spec Class!!!

End of advertisement. We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.
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Old 02-04-2014, 09:54 AM   #20353
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I guess with all the BL motor stuff going on it sounds like BS..
So my minis will be retired this year can't see spending 200.00 plus on
A BL setup to go in a 100.00 dollar car...
Its been fun......
And one note motors do help in winning and so do car setup and battery's..
I learned a lot on battery's from the last year nats.
Good luck to all this year
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Old 02-04-2014, 09:56 AM   #20354
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I guess with all the BL motor stuff going on it sounds like BS..
So my minis will be retired this year can't see spending 200.00 plus on
A BL setup to go in a 100.00 dollar car...
Its been fun......
And one note motors do help in winning and so do car setup and battery's..
I learned a lot on battery's from the last year nats.
Good luck to all this year
From what I understand, the silvercans won't be disallowed, but they're opening up the options for brushless as well. If you don't want to drop $200 on a new motor setup, then don't.
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Old 02-04-2014, 10:02 AM   #20355
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I'm totally Okay with the ringers running in the spec classes, especially if they are actively helping the scrubs.

We had nearly no (or none) turnout for mini or VTA or spec slash before I started running then AND evangelizing for the classes. Which is a shame, because they are IMO the most fun of the classes my local track offers. IMO, part of the reason is they both run on treaded tires. Another reason is they look like real cars. Another is a tight set of rules that keep people from dialing themselves out with "hot trick parts of the week" and focus on making sure the servo saver is operating correctly and the tires are right.

A local former full factory guy I know (who just barely missed the A in 2w and 4w at the Vassa worlds) told me that "spec slash is the best class (at his local class) because nobody takes it that seriously". I feel the same way about Mini and VTA, and try to treat them accordingly.

Don't get all serious and wreck all the fun!
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