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Old 02-02-2014, 12:53 PM   #20326
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I agree with Grandpa when he said,"Mini used to be a nice inexpensive class that you could be competitive in for very little money." I have raced in the VTA class where there are some restrictive motor rules and people still change the internal parts of their brushless motors. Suddenly, guys that were about the same speed as everyone else are blowing the doors off everyone at a big race where there are no motor checks. The brushless voodoo is just as bad as the silver can adjustments. The difference for me is I could buy a mini with an esc and motor for about $130 and go race. Now, I have to buy a brushless system. There's no low budget class any more for experienced drivers.
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Old 02-02-2014, 01:06 PM   #20327
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I agree with Grandpa when he saidand ine"Mini used to be a nice inexpensive class that you could be competitive in for very little money." I have raced in the VTA class where there are some restrictive motor rules and people still change the internal parts of their brushless motors. Suddenly, guys that were about the same speed as everyone else are blowing the doors off everyone at a big race where there are no motor checks. The brushless voodoo is just as bad as the silver can adjustments. The difference for me is I could buy a mini with an esc and motor for about $130 and go race. Now, I have to buy a brushless system. There's no low budget class any more for experienced drivers.
Spec ESC and motor. Any 'faster' motor could hopefully be clearly identified and weeded out.

HW 13t is my vote. Has worked for years down under, and inexpensive as well
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Old 02-02-2014, 01:16 PM   #20328
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It they had not written that "end bell" rule in there, IMO, every 21.5 on the market would of worked okay because of the fixed gear.

I disagree - it's only as speedy as you want it to be. I bought a Killshot because I wanted to try it against my leftover from the gt3 days Thunder Power. Whichever one works worst in the mini goes in my FF car. Because I can gear the FF to 3.85, either one of them will work there.

Both of those motors have way more timing adjustment than you can possibly use. The motor I want to run (Novak) is never going to work based on the way the rules are written. I know that's not what Fred wanted when he wrote it, but that's what he got. Maybe Novak can come out with special "TCS SPEC" end bells with different stickers......
I'll defer to your superior B/L motor knowledge. So let's assume you're correct, but you really did not address what was "pissing" me off. That was the expense. If you want to try a different motor and rotor, you're looking at $100-150 if you include tax and shipping. The exception is the Speed Passion with the option sensor plate, which will be $55-60. Being new to B/L motors I started with 2 motors from manufactures I was familiar with. Both were not competitive in Minis. Then I purchased another motor from a company owned by someone i've known for a long time. That one turned out to be a good motor for F1 and TC, but not for Minis. Add that up, it's a lifetimes worth of Sivercans.

I don't understand what you disagree with me about. Could you clarify please? I understand you have 2 motors and you're going to use the "best" one in your Mini. Does that mean that one of the motors could be faster than the other in a Mini??? Isn't that the point of my rant? That the search for the "best" motor was too expensive for me. I did go back and read my post and can't understand the points of disagreement.
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Old 02-02-2014, 01:37 PM   #20329
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I'll defer to your superior B/L motor knowledge. So let's assume you're correct, but you really did not address what was "pissing" me off. That was the expense. If you want to try a different motor and rotor, you're looking at $100-150 if you include tax and shipping. The exception is the Speed Passion with the option sensor plate, which will be $55-60. Being new to B/L motors I started with 2 motors from manufactures I was familiar with. Both were not competitive in Minis. Then I purchased another motor from a company owned by someone i've known for a long time. That one turned out to be a good motor for F1 and TC, but not for Minis. Add that up, it's a lifetimes worth of Sivercans.

I don't understand what you disagree with me about. Could you clarify please? I understand you have 2 motors and you're going to use the "best" one in your Mini. Does that mean that one of the motors could be faster than the other in a Mini??? Isn't that the point of my rant? That the search for the "best" motor was too expensive for me. I did go back and read my post and can't understand the points of disagreement.
Was using the HW 13T an option at one point? The guys over at rc-mini was successful with it. I personally run it in mines and the speed is on par with the black can and the motor stays cool. Perfect speed range for the chassis imo.

Mini's don't have to go the way blinky TC is headed.
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Old 02-02-2014, 02:03 PM   #20330
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I'll defer to your superior B/L motor knowledge. So let's assume you're correct, but you really did not address what was "pissing" me off. That was the expense. If you want to try a different motor and rotor, you're looking at $100-150 if you include tax and shipping. The exception is the Speed Passion with the option sensor plate, which will be $55-60. Being new to B/L motors I started with 2 motors from manufactures I was familiar with. Both were not competitive in Minis. Then I purchased another motor from a company owned by someone i've known for a long time. That one turned out to be a good motor for F1 and TC, but not for Minis. Add that up, it's a lifetimes worth of Sivercans.

I don't understand what you disagree with me about. Could you clarify please? I understand you have 2 motors and you're going to use the "best" one in your Mini. Does that mean that one of the motors could be faster than the other in a Mini??? Isn't that the point of my rant? That the search for the "best" motor was too expensive for me. I did go back and read my post and can't understand the points of disagreement.
My Thunderpower motor of choice cost me $140 for GT3 ($90 for the motor, another $40 for the green rotor, plus tax). In mini, if I had to buy one, it would be cheaper ($90) because the 12.3mm red rotor would work fine in a mini since it's gear limited and doesn't need to pull a 1400g 4w sedan with a gear ratio of 3.2 or so. Since I've been kicked out of GT3, it's real cost for me (or anyone else who ran GT3 last year) was -0-.

However, I only have one, and I need a second motor so I can run the FF class. The Killshot motor has 40 degrees of on can timing advance. To me, that's the safe one to buy. It has the wrong rotor IMO (12.5 mm), but I wanted one to try anyway so it wasn't a big deal.

I'm not saying I'm a BL expert (I'm an accountant by training, my wife is the engineer), but I remember this same doom and gloom argument happening in 1/10 oval in 2007, and the sky didn't fall there either. Our rules were tighter then, which is/was a plus, but Fred is backed in a corner by people complaining about not being able to run their motor of choice so I'm empathetic to his position.

I can see why you're bent. I could be mad about it too, I just made a choice not to care because it gets in the way of me having fun - in what looks to be the most fun class in the most fun of any series currently running TCS. I'm not expecting to be slow, but if I am, it won't stop me from having a good time. Pretty sure I won't be slow, but if I am - so what? If I wanted to go fast, I'd just go run gt2 or gt1. But I don't want to work that hard.

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Mini's don't have to go the way blinky TC is headed.
So long as you can't put a pinion on bigger than 20t, it won't. As you increase timing, RPMS increase, but after a certain point the motor loses torque and builds heat like crazy. You may have the fastest thing getting to the sweeper, but it won't be great in the infield. It's when you can gear up things get out of control.

In case anyone cares, the hot ticket last year in gt3 is a reedy (out of the package) or Thunderpower with a green rotor (almost exactly the same), with the timing at 32-34 degrees, a big fan, and geared up till it gets to be about 145 after seven minutes on track. If you get there, the car is making as much power as it can and still be efficient. If the lap times aren't where you want them, start working on chassis setup.

When the lap times start to get quicker, go check the motor. If it lost a couple of degrees, you can gear up some more because the car is carrying more corner speed and you aren't lugging the motor as much out of the corner.

Nobody asked, but if I was king of the world, this is the motor I'd of chose for a spec:

https://www.tamiyausa.com/items/radi...motor-01-54181
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Last edited by CraigMBA; 02-02-2014 at 02:46 PM. Reason: Missed one
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Old 02-03-2014, 10:16 AM   #20331
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Was using the HW 13T an option at one point? The guys over at rc-mini was successful with it. I personally run it in mines and the speed is on par with the black can and the motor stays cool. Perfect speed range for the chassis imo.

Mini's don't have to go the way blinky TC is headed.
I don't believe it was. That would have made sense tho. What would have made more sense was to let people use any esc that you could not advance the timing with, but select just one motor. That would have eliminated the search for a competitive motor and the only expense would have been the purchase of one motor. This also would have produced a "level" playing field. Of course, there is "voodoo" with B/L motors also. There's an obvious comparison here.

Regardless, we're stuck with these rules. Sometimes, TCS is like dealing with a government bureaucracy. They don't always make sense, but they do write the rules. And rules sometimes do have unintended consequences.

With that being said, it is nice not to be removing motors and cleaning comms every few runs.
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Old 02-03-2014, 10:30 AM   #20332
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Nobody asked, but if I was king of the world, this is the motor I'd of chose for a spec:
Yup. Perfect motor in house, but no dice.
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Old 02-03-2014, 07:38 PM   #20333
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Yup. Perfect motor in house, but no dice.
Point made Jim. You've got a great sense of humor as does Craig. I'm properly chastised for belly achin' about the motor rules. You're right. The rules are the rules and they could have been considerably worse.

I'd have been tearing my hair out with this motor. Guys would have been reaching retirement age before they reached the sweeper. This would have been evil. Sorry it took me so long to catch the "joke".

I was wondering what you guys were thinking till I realized you were just "yankin' my chain"
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Old 02-03-2014, 09:09 PM   #20334
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But I wasn't kidding. :| I never joke about minis.

That motor would be right in the ballpark of a good silvercan. 19,000rpm would be about right...unless your tests were conducted at a lower voltage. (?) Our spec 2200 motors are generally a little faster than a stock can.
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Old 02-03-2014, 09:48 PM   #20335
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After the first TCS RC I decided to o back to my M03 and compare it to my M05. Both now have the just stock hobby wing speedo. curious to do back to back testing to determine which one is best for me in long wheel base. (I wish Tamiya would make a cooper body for mid wheel).

Issue is my m03 was pretty beat up so I decided to build new. Question is, has anyone noticed the black gears are not as smooth as the white gears? In fact the bearings were not snug on he idler gear? Anyone come across this issue?

And for the record and I've been critical of Tamiya on the TCS thread for not have a spc motor designated for mclass. 2014 is going to be an expensive year for mclass racers! The first TCS race made it crystal clear
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Old 02-04-2014, 12:19 AM   #20336
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Originally Posted by Carl Giordano View Post
After the first TCS RC I decided to o back to my M03 and compare it to my M05. Both now have the just stock hobby wing speedo. curious to do back to back testing to determine which one is best for me in long wheel base. (I wish Tamiya would make a cooper body for mid wheel).

Issue is my m03 was pretty beat up so I decided to build new. Question is, has anyone noticed the black gears are not as smooth as the white gears? In fact the bearings were not snug on he idler gear? Anyone come across this issue?

And for the record and I've been critical of Tamiya on the TCS thread for not have a spc motor designated for mclass. 2014 is going to be an expensive year for mclass racers! The first TCS race made it crystal clear
Supposedly the black gears run tight in the M-03, they are an ever so slightly different size due to the different properties of the material. However they work fine in an M-05.
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Old 02-04-2014, 12:21 AM   #20337
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But I wasn't kidding. :| I never joke about minis.

That motor would be right in the ballpark of a good silvercan. 19,000rpm would be about right...unless your tests were conducted at a lower voltage. (?) Our spec 2200 motors are generally a little faster than a stock can.
Then, let me apologize for thinking you were. Please let me explain why I thought you just had to be joking. I did click on the link that was provided.

First, Tamiya says that it is the equivalent of the 28T lightly tuned motor. I've checked and "tuned" several of these motors and they are not any where near the performance levels of a Silvercan. As I recall these motors turn in the high 15k to low 16k range.

Second, Tamiya rates the motor at 2200KV @ 7.2v. That puts it at the equivalent of the 28T motor.

Third, Tamiya states that you must use their esc. Whether that's true or not, I don't know.

Fourth, obtaining one may be a problem unless you deal with a hobby shop that deals with Tamiya regularly. Of course, you can order directly from Tamiya and pay retail which is $106.

Fifth, the motor is sensorless. Whether that would be problem with some escs, I'm not sure of.

Sixth, experiments with 17.5 sensorless motors resulted in the conclusion that they were slower than a good Silvercan. I would guess a 21.5 sensorless would be even slower.

Now, having never run one of these motors, I could not tell you that you are mistaken. But from my experiences and those of the Mini Mafia, it would appear that you may have leaped to an erroneous conclusion. Again, our testing is on the crude side with no elaborate lab equipment. Just two cars on the track and which one goes faster, which is where it really counts.

Out of respect for your "I never kid about Minis", I thought you deserved a serious response as to why I thought you were. Being a relative newbie to B/L technology, I freely admit that I may be standing in water over my head.
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Old 02-04-2014, 12:40 AM   #20338
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No need to apologize. The truth is minis are hilarious and my sense of humour doesn't translate well in text form. That said...

1. Tamiya says it's equivalent in power output to a 28T something something motor. Do they mean torque, watts, pixie-power or something else?

2. They rate it at 2270kv and at 7.2v that's about 16.300rpm. You're spot on there. I always assume 8.4v because I'm a guy and I exaggerate things like that.

3. I doubt you need to use their ESC. They say that about everything. Fibbers.

4. There are hobby shops that don't deal with Tamiya? What kind of commie lovin' hippy Obamacare wantin' goofball shops are these?

5. Sensorless would present an issue for some ESCs, but there are loads of cheap units that could work.

6. ...I've got nothing on this one. Never did back to back bench testing. We've just seen lap times drop over the past few years since we switched. Could be driver skill. Could be the motors.

I make many, many erroneous conclusions, but unlike a politician in a sex scandal, I won't double down. I will crawl away with my tail between my legs. (Have I ever mentioned I've got a tail? Helluva thing, really. I sleep hanging in a tree.)

I've come to believe that one can't actually take mini seriously. Driving a mini is akin to crisis management. You just have to make the best of a bad situation and hope you can walk away with a few good stories.

Jim
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Last edited by monkeyracing; 02-04-2014 at 12:43 AM. Reason: needed more funny
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Old 02-04-2014, 04:21 AM   #20339
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just to chime in... we run the Tamiya 18T TBLM01/TBLE01 combo against Tamiya Lightly Tuned motors (open ESC) locally... so far no clear winner between the two (for 2 seasons, now on our 3rd). Some races are won by the BL combo... some others won by the LT. The pretty much look like they're on equal speed/pace on the back straight...
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Old 02-04-2014, 06:09 AM   #20340
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Originally Posted by Granpa View Post
Fifth, the motor is sensorless. Whether that would be problem with some escs, I'm not sure of.

Sixth, experiments with 17.5 sensorless motors resulted in the conclusion that they were slower than a good Silvercan. I would guess a 21.5 sensorless would be even slower.
Many ESCs (including most "racing" versions) won't run sensorless motors. And sensors are absolutely required if "Blinky" (non-timing operation) is the rule.

Timing can be adjusted when using a sensorless motor, but it must be done via software in the ESC. Castle ESCs have this feature, and there may be others. That could increase the speed of a sensorless 21.5 to a competitive point. I don't know how much timing is available in the Castle ESCs, as the instructions don't say, and I've never measured it.
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