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Old 12-06-2013, 10:02 AM   #19981
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I've seen this mentioned a few times and it is not true at our track.

Beginning in 2013 we have been running 21.5 with no timing.
(Our race director was assuming that TCS would be going to this in 2014)

You can always tell when someone shows up with a silver can in their car. The 21.5 cars are quite a bit slower down the long straight than the silver can cars.
agreed, this have proven true a few times, even with the 17.5 bl experiments as well..
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Old 12-06-2013, 10:12 AM   #19982
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The TCS rules page says any ROAR-approved motor, but there are no restrictions on timing. That's probably NOT a recipe for success. I foresee a bunch of dead ESCs in the future.

And speaking of ESCs, the TCS rules page for them is blank at the moment. It would be nice to see them restricted to ROAR-approved blinky.
At a certain point, you can continue to advance the timing and amp draw shoots up and rpms FALL. On Novak that point is *about* 45 degrees.
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Old 12-06-2013, 10:16 AM   #19983
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Originally Posted by kwkride View Post
I've seen this mentioned a few times and it is not true at our track.

Beginning in 2013 we have been running 21.5 with no timing.
(Our race director was assuming that TCS would be going to this in 2014)

You can always tell when someone shows up with a silver can in their car. The 21.5 cars are quite a bit slower down the long straight than the silver can cars.
So no timing in the motor either? Come TCS they will be cranked all the way and then some
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Old 12-06-2013, 10:17 AM   #19984
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At a certain point, you can continue to advance the timing and amp draw shoots up and rpms FALL. On Novak that point is *about* 45 degrees.
That hasn't been my experience. The Novaks I have, Ballistic and SS, have about double the kV with around 70 degrees total advance. On the SS, that must be done electronically, but the Ballistic can be adjusted mechanically to any timing advance.
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Old 12-06-2013, 10:33 AM   #19985
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That hasn't been my experience. The Novaks I have, Ballistic and SS, have about double the kV with around 70 degrees total advance. On the SS, that must be done electronically, but the Ballistic can be adjusted mechanically to any timing advance.
Somewhere After 60 degrees physical timing, the Novak product starts to cog. How you got it to operate at all at 70 degrees is a bit of a miracle. One of the guys I used to race VTA with was two laps off the pace with 60+/- timing. I put 45 and he lapped us. We were running a 3.70 gear rule at the time. Where I learned about too much timing was in 1c oval, where we spent an exhaustive amount of time on the dyno. In my experience last year in sedans, nothing we learned in 1c was wrong, and it still holds true. There is a reason my cars motor temps were coming off the track at 145 and other guys were burning stuff up in gt3. Then again, I used one set of tires total during the racing part of the Nats.

Others may disagree, but that's my opinion and why I have it.
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Last edited by CraigMBA; 12-06-2013 at 11:10 AM.
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Old 12-06-2013, 11:13 AM   #19986
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Actually, you need to read the rules. For Mini, you may advance the timing, but only to the max timing mark on the motor. So what the motor does at 60 or 70 degrees isn't important. I only have 4 B/L motors and all of them have the max timing set at 40-50 degrees.

The fastest motors we've tested are the ones that have the max timing mark at 50 degrees when tested at the max timing mark on the motors. These motors were considerably faster down the straight than a good TCS legal Silvercan----rpms below 18,750.

If your 21.5 is slower than a TCS legal Silvercan, you have not "cranked" the timing to the max. If you have, you need to buy a motor from a different manufacturer. We've been finding that there is a variation in motors. For example, one manufacturer's "new" motor is slower than the original, all things being equal. One manufacturer uses a label, so that opens up an interesting situation.

I've been testing a prototype motor for one manufacturer that is "blow your doors down" fast. Like i said in an earlier post, we've gone from a level playing field to one that's not as level and considerably more expensive.
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Old 12-06-2013, 11:55 AM   #19987
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Actually, you need to read the rules. For Mini, you may advance the timing, but only to the max timing mark on the motor.
I didn't find this in the rules. Can you provide a link?

Wouldn't it just be easier to spec a maximum RPM, and make it identical to the RPM limit for brushed motors?
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Old 12-06-2013, 12:04 PM   #19988
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Yes! Spec racing is meaningless when there's this much room to screw around.
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Old 12-06-2013, 12:18 PM   #19989
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Orca spark q with 2200kv motor seems to work awesome in western canada some of the most fun racing i've ever done very challenging to go fast
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Old 12-06-2013, 12:47 PM   #19990
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Yes! Spec racing is meaningless when there's this much room to screw around.
This.

For my own clarification, the current TCS rules have a single-sourced, spec silver can motor. Not a Mabuchi or Nidec silvercan, but specifically the Tamiya 540J (Johnson Electric). Did any of the TCS rule makers consider single sourcing a brushless motor for the M-chassis classes?

It's possible their thought process was that an open set of motors is works fine in the F1 class. But IMO, going cold-turkey like this raises a lot of concerns (like we have here already). The F1 folks have been running brushless for a while and parity issues are behind them (or so it seems, I haven't raced F1 in a while). The M-scale cars, being limited on gearing, can't compensate so much for any motor disparity.
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Old 12-06-2013, 02:00 PM   #19991
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I didn't find this in the rules. Can you provide a link?

Wouldn't it just be easier to spec a maximum RPM, and make it identical to the RPM limit for brushed motors?
Howard, I come from a low tech generation of rotary phones and crystal radios. I found it in the Racing Forum in the Tamiya thread. Fred or FMW just posted them.

What's the easiest, makes the most sense, is frequently not what is done. Too often the law of unintended consequences rears it's ugly head. For the most part, Fred does a terrific and thankless job with the rules, but there are times I wonder WTF he was thinking. Jeez, he had to know that the motors from different manufacturers had different markings on them.

But, I've learned over the years, it's much easier to criticize from the sidelines. I don't particularly like these rules, but will try to conform to them. The rules are modified from time to time when obvious flaws are found.
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Old 12-06-2013, 02:20 PM   #19992
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Fred does a terrific and thankless job with the rules...
Cheers to that. I don't know how he puts up with all the flack.

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But, I've learned over the years, it's much easier to criticize from the sidelines.
Absolutely. We switched up to the Orca 2200KV systems mentioned above a few years ago. I'm proud to say I spearheaded the effort. The downside is, I'm usually the first to hear complaints. Even though it's resulted in Mini growing and booming and people saving money, there's still griping.
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Old 12-06-2013, 02:38 PM   #19993
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What's the easiest, makes the most sense, is frequently not what is done. Too often the law of unintended consequences rears it's ugly head. For the most part, Fred does a terrific and thankless job with the rules...

But, I've learned over the years, it's much easier to criticize from the sidelines.
No criticism intended here, just suggestions. Fortunately, it would be quite easy to add an RPM limit without changing anything else. It might need to be lower than the brushed limit to accommodate motors with limited timing adjustment, but that's okay, as long as everybody follows the rule.
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Last edited by howardcano; 12-06-2013 at 08:22 PM.
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Old 12-06-2013, 02:54 PM   #19994
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Just stay with brushed motors, brushless is too costly , with their motor wars, etc... !!!!
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Old 12-06-2013, 03:48 PM   #19995
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Hths

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EDIT: Oops, looks like i forgot to hit "send" on this one last night.

Well, you've got your standard "glitch buster" cap in the first pic.It's just like the one in the second pic, but it's got plug on it.

Another place a cap has come in handy in the past, though I think this might not be the issue, would be on the battery wire/power side. Any of these caps will work, but I like the Tekin (third picture) because they're small and cheap.





Thanks guys.
I found one on an old Novak GT7 ESC that came with an EBay job lot years ago, I removed it and fitted a servo plug and have it in the car now, race day tomorrow, so hopefully no problems
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