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Old 11-14-2013, 09:38 PM   #19846
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Just have fun, Bensi. Don't go crazy in the hobby shops.
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Old 11-15-2013, 12:37 AM   #19847
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Default Camber gain/roll center

Jim and Grandpa,
You guys are confusing me a bit. Wouldn't using shorter camber rods increase the negative camber at ride height, and therefore when compressed, but wouldn't change camber gain at all? Lowering the inner camber link mounting point would certainly increase camber gain, but on a Mini there are only the two front inner mounting points, and using the lower one handles IMHO like crap, the point where too much camber gain is...too much.
Castor has to do with king pin angle, nothing to do with camber rods...
I thought to LOWER roll center, you RAISED the camber link mounting points, and visa versa, but this only applies to TC, as these changes aren't available on a Mini. Using shorter camber links can effect camber gain, but you must be able to re-set static camber at ride height, again a TC trick we can't do on a Mini. Let's discuss...
Bozo
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Old 11-15-2013, 02:08 AM   #19848
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Let's eliminate roll center from the conversation for now. I just read a lengthy article about it and I'm more annoyed than ever. Even with diagrams, I feel a sense of burning injustice, as though those far nerdier than I were taunting me with math. I'm going to directly quote one of those nerds, Martin Crisp, as he explains things far more clearly than I. He wrote the XXX-Main Chassis Setup Guide (book) and RC Setup Workbench. (app for iOS and Android)

"Camber gain is the amount the camber changes during during cornering as a result of the car leaning... (suspension compressing)

If the upper suspension arm is shorter than the lower arm, this will cause more camber gain because it will pull the upper portion of the tire more dramatically as the car rolls or pitches...

The more angled down towards the chassis the upper link is, the more camber gain... Although this has a greater effect on camber gain than shortening the upper link, , because the car will actually roll less, it will actually reduce camber gain.
"

Discounting the reduced roll a car will have in the latter scenario, it seems both shortening the upper link and lowering the inner mounting point of the upper arm will increase camber gain, though the lower mounting point has a greater effect. I'm thinking I'll just stick with the upper mounting hole and try a set of the 0.5mm shorter arms to see if I like them.
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Old 11-15-2013, 05:36 AM   #19849
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Hey guys,

I'm using a kit motor at my usual club but another club has said we can use down to a 13.5t motor on Lipo's when we visit.

I'm interested to know how different the car will be running a brushless 13.5t set up, I have visions of some serious barrel rolling at the turn at the end of the straight!!

All on carpet btw
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Old 11-15-2013, 08:30 AM   #19850
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laguna Bozo View Post
Jim and Grandpa,
You guys are confusing me a bit. Wouldn't using shorter camber rods increase the negative camber at ride height, and therefore when compressed, but wouldn't change camber gain at all? Lowering the inner camber link mounting point would certainly increase camber gain, but on a Mini there are only the two front inner mounting points, and using the lower one handles IMHO like crap, the point where too much camber gain is...too much.
Castor has to do with king pin angle, nothing to do with camber rods...
I thought to LOWER roll center, you RAISED the camber link mounting points, and visa versa, but this only applies to TC, as these changes aren't available on a Mini. Using shorter camber links can effect camber gain, but you must be able to re-set static camber at ride height, again a TC trick we can't do on a Mini. Let's discuss...
Bozo
No, the shorter the upper link, the more camber gain. You could be right on the roll centers, tho. I had to reach into the nether regions of my memory for anything on roll centers. Been racing Minis too long.

You're right, caster is the amount the king pins lean one way or the other from vertical and won't change with camber. Can't remember which way was negative and which was positive. On a side note, Dennis Lyman was of the opinion that the M05 would benefit from a little more caster. I've always had to run a little more toe out with the 05 than the 03, but I thought that was more the result of a less direct steering system.

Last edited by Granpa; 11-15-2013 at 08:51 AM. Reason: correction
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Old 11-15-2013, 09:12 AM   #19851
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Default Camber Arms

Hi Guys,
At Bensi's suggestion, I tried the .5mm shorter links (upper mounting hole) and liked 'em! Gives the 05 just a little more steering, which it sorely needs when chasing 03's...
Luck, Craig
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Old 11-16-2013, 03:38 AM   #19852
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Hi guys,

Our carpet club is giving us a free run to try other tyres, the current rules are 60d standard or M grip tyres. What is a good carpet tyre of any make and size? Can you explain Sweep tyres and what would be the M grip equivalent for example?

Cheers!
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Old 11-16-2013, 11:14 AM   #19853
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Hey guys,

Sorry for delay. My base setup was way off and have been struggling since. I am learning so much as everything I think I know about mini setup does not apply here. The locals Grahoo and Nakada-san have been helping me to sort out. I'm currently qualified 18th out of 19 cars. I have one more qualifier.

Tip for anyone who makes it to this race in the future start playing rebound on shocks. The locals have full rebound with shock shaft shots up after compression and they are also running spools. And the last thing which I still don't under stand is to make the car push, they run softer compound up front and harder ones in the rear.

Btw, I wish I had more room in my luggage. Tamiya Fair that's going on at the same time has so much cool stuff. They are selling the 418 at the shop.
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Old 11-16-2013, 07:34 PM   #19854
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Bensi,

You should learn a lot from Grahoo, I am jealous as, but no TCS here in aust anymore.

On another note, has anyone run the gold edition car with the new short front link and rear Tamiya cf shocktower. If so what differences if any did it make. I am in the process of fittng the MO6 shock mounts to my MO5. I drove a friends car last night with them fitted and it was good, but did not have the rear shock tower fitted or the new front shorter link.

Thanks

Calvin.
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Old 11-16-2013, 07:45 PM   #19855
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Shoot. Last Grahoo tutorial I watched he was advocating little or no rebound. Squeeze Him for all the info you can and tell him he's got fans over here.

I'm interested in what effect/advantage the carbon rear shock tower has as well, besides being very nice looking. I've "de-contented" my M05 Gold, pretty much back to a regular M05. The revised damper mounting positions provided no advantage, given our super smooth tracks and low ride heights. Shocks are all standard fare, built to 54/55mm. The alloy toe in plate ended up being a bit much, as well. 2.5 degrees is a bit excessive on the carpets we run. I've got the front carbon tower, to stand the shocks up. Thinking about switching to old school M03/TL01 alloy front uprights, just because they're tough as nails. (Plus, they're a pale gold colour and will go with my sort of pale gold coloured old TRF dampers.)

EDIT: Cool. Bensi is live on ustream right now!
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Last edited by monkeyracing; 11-16-2013 at 08:48 PM.
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Old 11-16-2013, 10:02 PM   #19856
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caltek1 View Post
Bensi,

You should learn a lot from Grahoo, I am jealous as, but no TCS here in aust anymore.

On another note, has anyone run the gold edition car with the new short front link and rear Tamiya cf shocktower. If so what differences if any did it make. I am in the process of fittng the MO6 shock mounts to my MO5. I drove a friends car last night with them fitted and it was good, but did not have the rear shock tower fitted or the new front shorter link.

Thanks

Calvin.
Calvin, you have a PM.
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Old 11-17-2013, 04:12 AM   #19857
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boons View Post
Hi guys,

Our carpet club is giving us a free run to try other tyres, the current rules are 60d standard or M grip tyres. What is a good carpet tyre of any make and size? Can you explain Sweep tyres and what would be the M grip equivalent for example?

Cheers!
Hi boons
Down here in the West Country Sweeps are very popular and used as a control tyre at quite a few events. We run 33 shore up front and 25's on the rear. With this combination you will find the car tends to grip roll so super gluing the front sidewalls stops this.
As for your motor question a friend ran a 13.5 brushless and I was very slightly quicker than him with a Saturn 20 turn. So the expense of a brushless system seems pointless. A couple of years ago at an open event another mate ran a 6.5 turn brushless which just caused the front tyres to ballon up and occasionally explode! very funny!!!
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Old 11-17-2013, 04:18 AM   #19858
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrobinson View Post
Hi boons
Down here in the West Country Sweeps are very popular and used as a control tyre at quite a few events. We run 33 shore up front and 25's on the rear. With this combination you will find the car tends to grip roll so super gluing the front sidewalls stops this.
As for your motor question a friend ran a 13.5 brushless and I was very slightly quicker than him with a Saturn 20 turn. So the expense of a brushless system seems pointless. A couple of years ago at an open event another mate ran a 6.5 turn brushless which just caused the front tyres to ballon up and occasionally explode! very funny!!!
Cheers Mark

Have you compared the sweeps to the tamiya tyres? And how well does a mini go with the hotter motor over the kit motor? Is it a bit of a fight, or well behaved?

Cheers

Ryan
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Old 11-17-2013, 04:41 AM   #19859
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Cheers Mark

Have you compared the sweeps to the tamiya tyres? And how well does a mini go with the hotter motor over the kit motor? Is it a bit of a fight, or well behaved?

Cheers

Ryan
Hi Ryan

I've never ran 60d tyres so can't comment on how they compare. All I can say is with the sweeps it's on rails. The mini hanles the Saturn just fine
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Old 11-17-2013, 05:53 AM   #19860
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Cheers Mark

What do the numbers mean on the sweep tyres, and the shore bit? Is your set up for an M03 or 5?

Cheers

Ryan
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