R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Electric On-Road

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 09-24-2013, 07:18 AM   #19591
Tech Regular
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: council bluffs Iowa
Posts: 346
Trader Rating: 6 (100%+)
Default

I'm building my first mini and have been trying to find a good setup all that I have found have been really lacking in detail I'm building an mo5 gold edition for small carpet track my main hang ups are which shock pistons oil wt and springs any help would be appreciated
__________________
Proud to be a team driver for Triton , Radiopost, Pro-line

Yokomo YZ2DT, Bmaxx4 III, Sworkz s104evo all Tekin powered. Sworkz s350T Triton L5 powered, Sworkz S350 evo2 Triton L4 powered
scorpion51503 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2013, 08:00 AM   #19592
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,367
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by howardcano View Post
We need to keep in mind the limited selection of gear ratios when selecting a brushless motor. The 25.5 would have sufficient power, but it has very low RPM compared to a silver can, so the gear ratio would need to be very tall. On the other hand, a lower-turn motor may give the same top speed, but way more torque and power than the silver can.
The best way to compare is actual on track testing. Lap times and actual head to head racing between 2 cars relatively equal in set up. This was done in the test I mentioned in an earlier post. The B/L motor tested was the Novak 25.5 which is used in the VTA series. It was very close in performance to a stock Silvercan that anyone could buy off the shelf.

I've often wondered why some TCS decisions made. Some didn't make sense at first. However, when everything was factored in, including the commercial interests and relationships, the reasoning became clearer. I may be totally wrong here, but based on what I've seen in the past, The HW and ORCA systems won't be in the mix.
Granpa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2013, 08:32 AM   #19593
Tech Master
 
KA2AEV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Tottenville, NYC
Posts: 1,428
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Since the topic is brushless
Quick question someone may care to answer
Tamiya has the Torque Tuned Motors (Listed at 25T)
The brushless I think everyone is talking about is 25.5T correct?
Is there any major differences between the two except for that additional half turn
the brushless' have internally?
__________________
Hauler Driver, Liason, Lead Mechanic, Crew Chief, Procurement Specialist,
Conflict Resolution Specialist, Pychologist, Therapist All for Team Golddust Racing
Oh and By The Way
NBCsn and FxSports cable is growing on me too!
KA2AEV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2013, 08:39 AM   #19594
Tech Champion
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,638
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

There are lots of cheap rtr brushed speedos out there that can run a silvercan... The tekin fxr is way overkill for mini Racing. I run my mini with leftover speedos and motors from the other ready to run cars I had purchased years ago.
If you have been in the hobby for a while, then running a brushed mini is cheaper than BL by far, but if the length of the mains keeps getting longer, then BL will be cheaper in the long run if they legalize the cheap HW type systems... So far, I have not bought any esc or motor specifically for my mini. I am still using leftover speedos/motors, and won't ever go through all of them ever...
bertrandsv87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2013, 09:07 AM   #19595
Tech Adept
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: CHINO, CA
Posts: 110
Trader Rating: 18 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by scorpion51503 View Post
I'm building my first mini and have been trying to find a good setup all that I have found have been really lacking in detail I'm building an mo5 gold edition for small carpet track my main hang ups are which shock pistons oil wt and springs any help would be appreciated
Scorpion,

You have PM.
back9monsta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2013, 09:32 AM   #19596
Tech Addict
 
AngryRog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: SoCal
Posts: 613
Trader Rating: 19 (100%+)
Default

I am a fan of the HW system, and it's been flawless, though I don't run it much now at the Tamiya test track.

Building a 25.5 car for kicks, and easier to switch over to a 21.5 that some groups allow.
__________________
Anger, K-Speed, Mini Mafia, NitroHouse.com
M03, M05v2 Pro, FF03-R, TA05v2, TRF419X, Roche P12
AngryRog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2013, 10:07 AM   #19597
Tech Elite
 
howardcano's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Olathe, KS
Posts: 3,280
Trader Rating: 35 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KA2AEV View Post
Since the topic is brushless
Quick question someone may care to answer
Tamiya has the Torque Tuned Motors (Listed at 25T)
The brushless I think everyone is talking about is 25.5T correct?
Is there any major differences between the two except for that additional half turn
the brushless' have internally?
Almost everything is different between the two motors, including (obviously) brush friction and resistance; armature vs stator resistance; magnetic field strength; magnetic field temperature coefficient; enclosed flux; and bearings. One can't use the number of turns to establish equivalence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Granpa View Post
The best way to compare is actual on track testing. Lap times and actual head to head racing between 2 cars relatively equal in set up. This was done in the test I mentioned in an earlier post. The B/L motor tested was the Novak 25.5 which is used in the VTA series. It was very close in performance to a stock Silvercan that anyone could buy off the shelf.
Were the gear ratios different?

I appreciate your point, but one of the (many) problems with on-track testing is it may only be valid for one track. I'd prefer to go by the numbers, matching peak power as closely as possible, and ensuring that each motor can be geared properly around that power peak.

The 25.5 brushless and silver can brushed might be very nicely matched on a tight course, but on a large track the 25.5 will be significantly slower in a straight line if the gear ratios are the same.

The UF1 guys run 21.5 brushless for parity with the silver can, and they seem satisfied with that. The Omaha Hobbyplex also runs 21.5 or silver can in their Mini class, and the cars are reasonably close in performance (and the track is BIG, at least for carpet).

Personally, I think we should forget about equivalence, and have everyone run the same motor. This has worked very well for VTA. In that case, 25.5 brushless is a good choice.
__________________
Howard Cano
When race results are re-calculated using the IOF (Index Of Fun), I always win.
1993 ROAR 1/8 Pan National Champion
howardcano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2013, 12:11 PM   #19598
Tech Master
 
KA2AEV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Tottenville, NYC
Posts: 1,428
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by howardcano View Post
Personally, I think we should forget about equivalence, and have everyone run the same motor. This has worked very well for VTA. In that case, 25.5 brushless is a good choice.
So if thats the case, why should we go out and have to invest in a new BL ESC as well as a new BL Motor then, why not just keep the Silvercans?
I know what you're gonna say
Well people know how to manipulate those motors, and I ask, there aren't
people out there who can manipulate the BLs?
There probably is, its just like those who know how to make a silvercan faster
Its their secret and they're not telling!

Asbestos Suit on! Fire when ready Gridley!
__________________
Hauler Driver, Liason, Lead Mechanic, Crew Chief, Procurement Specialist,
Conflict Resolution Specialist, Pychologist, Therapist All for Team Golddust Racing
Oh and By The Way
NBCsn and FxSports cable is growing on me too!
KA2AEV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2013, 12:28 PM   #19599
Tech Champion
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,638
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Any motor can be tampered with... The real issue here is that the companies want to push their BL products even in the most basic Rc Car class, which is not fair to nobody when tamiya has not yet released their BL mini RTRs..... If they do release their BL minis and make all other BL systems illegal for tcs Racing, a lot of good racers will lose alot more money than if they had kept their silvercans, and waited for tcs to approve a BL system.....Just sayin.... Show me a tcs legal BL tamiya mini RTR first, then I'll consider switching. Until then, silvercan rules....
bertrandsv87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2013, 01:37 PM   #19600
Tech Elite
 
howardcano's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Olathe, KS
Posts: 3,280
Trader Rating: 35 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KA2AEV View Post
So if thats the case, why should we go out and have to invest in a new BL ESC as well as a new BL Motor then, why not just keep the Silvercans?
I know what you're gonna say
Well people know how to manipulate those motors, and I ask, there aren't
people out there who can manipulate the BLs?
There probably is, its just like those who know how to make a silvercan faster
Its their secret and they're not telling!

Asbestos Suit on! Fire when ready Gridley!
Keeping silver cans is another good possibility. That's what I'm running, and it does fine against 21.5 brushless motors. I just think the racing is better when everybody uses the same thing, whatever that might be. I also think that, regardless of a higher initial investment, a spec brushless motor ends up saving money.

And yes, brushless motors also have plenty of possibilities for "enhancement". I've thought of a few myself!

P.S. What's a Gridley?
__________________
Howard Cano
When race results are re-calculated using the IOF (Index Of Fun), I always win.
1993 ROAR 1/8 Pan National Champion
howardcano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2013, 01:57 PM   #19601
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,367
Default

Howard, good hearing for you again. Gear ratios were the same and messin' with the gearing is not something Mini guys do. You can't compare UF1 with mini cause of the ability to change gearing.

In spite of what you may believe the 25.5 B/L was equal in speed to a stock Silvercan, not significantly slower and in fact may have been a little faster in a straight line. The timing had to be increased significantly off the scale, but with the low gearing and light weight of a Mini, that was not a problem.

I understand your point about using the same motor, but Tamiya is a business and not a racing organization. Commercial and business relationships will always be factored into the decisions. Striving for equivalency, as you phrased it, is worthwhile. The Mini was designed around a Silvercan and seems to work best and is, IMO, most enjoyable at those speeds. If they decide to change, from my perspective, I'd like to see a Silvercan equivalent.
Granpa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2013, 02:23 PM   #19602
Tech Elite
 
howardcano's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Olathe, KS
Posts: 3,280
Trader Rating: 35 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Granpa View Post
In spite of what you may believe the 25.5 B/L was equal in speed to a stock Silvercan, not significantly slower and in fact may have been a little faster in a straight line. The timing had to be increased significantly off the scale, but with the low gearing and light weight of a Mini, that was not a problem.
Thanks for the clarification. The rebuildable Novak motors do have infinitely adjustable timing (while the SS did not), so cranking it WAY up would do the trick. We just need to be careful about it!

Do you think the timing should still be restricted, as is done in VTA? It's pretty easy to check the free-running RPM, like what is done with the silver cans, as a limit. I'm concerned with the "more is better" mentality that might result in nuked ESCs and motors.
__________________
Howard Cano
When race results are re-calculated using the IOF (Index Of Fun), I always win.
1993 ROAR 1/8 Pan National Champion
howardcano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2013, 03:09 PM   #19603
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,367
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by howardcano View Post
Thanks for the clarification. The rebuildable Novak motors do have infinitely adjustable timing (while the SS did not), so cranking it WAY up would do the trick. We just need to be careful about it!

Do you think the timing should still be restricted, as is done in VTA? It's pretty easy to check the free-running RPM, like what is done with the silver cans, as a limit. I'm concerned with the "more is better" mentality that might result in nuked ESCs and motors.
I'm in complete agreement with you. If the timing was restricted, 21.5 would be a better option. If the timing was pulled back a 21.5 would live nearly forever and there would be a wider range of motor options. Tech seems to be the problem, so the guys actually putting on the events seem to favor the unlimited timing route. Having never worked in tech, don't really know whether it is or isn't.

In any case, I'm not rebuilding any of my Silvercan cars into B/L cars yet. There's one B/L car in my stable fitted with a 21.5 on which the timing has been reduced 45+ degrees. In a straight line it's about as fast as a stock 'can, so will play with that for now.
Granpa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2013, 05:10 PM   #19604
Tech Master
 
KA2AEV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Tottenville, NYC
Posts: 1,428
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Don't get me wrong I am all in favor of keeping silvercans and cannot understand why a company that does not sell bl setups would even consider making them a standard in their races?
Also since my son and myself are like most people these days racing on a limited budget, why should we be forced into buying a bl setup just to stay competitive with the teams? That is the basis of my orginal question. Can a 21.5 or 25.5 be competitive with a silvercan type (either a torque tuned or a speed tuned) actually both sold by tamiya and a lot cheaper (I think, and please correct me if I'm wrong) than a bl setup
__________________
Hauler Driver, Liason, Lead Mechanic, Crew Chief, Procurement Specialist,
Conflict Resolution Specialist, Pychologist, Therapist All for Team Golddust Racing
Oh and By The Way
NBCsn and FxSports cable is growing on me too!
KA2AEV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2013, 07:08 PM   #19605
Tech Elite
 
howardcano's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Olathe, KS
Posts: 3,280
Trader Rating: 35 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KA2AEV View Post
Can a 21.5 or 25.5 be competitive with a silvercan type (either a torque tuned or a speed tuned)
Yes, absolutely. In all likelihood the 25.5 has somewhat lower peak power than the silver can, especially if its timing is advanced past the optimum point just to get the revs to match the silver can.

But that's just fine with me; I would still run the 25.5, even if the power is lower. It's one less thing to worry about, and it will last for years. When my silver can dies, I'll probably switch over to whatever brushless motor the other guys are using.

On the tracks where I've run my Mini, the silvercan is actually too much power. More power doesn't help when the front tires are already spinning most of the way down the straight!
__________________
Howard Cano
When race results are re-calculated using the IOF (Index Of Fun), I always win.
1993 ROAR 1/8 Pan National Champion
howardcano is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Tamiya Mini Cooper M-03L Hop-ups mini71 R/C Items: Wanted to Buy 4 05-04-2016 11:07 AM
Tamiya Mini Cooper mach51 R/C Items: Wanted to Buy 10 09-02-2011 12:08 AM
FS:TAMIYA Mini Cooper, TA 04S rthmotorsports R/C Items: For Sale/Trade 4 10-20-2007 09:37 PM
Tamiya 415 MSX and M03 Mini Cooper F/S Racer X79 R/C Items: For Sale/Trade 14 12-22-2006 07:38 AM
Tamiya M01,02,03, or 04 Mini Cooper ccugolf.com R/C Items: Wanted to Buy 2 12-05-2004 08:55 PM


Tags
m03, m03r ules, m05, mini, tamiya


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 09:22 AM.


Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net

SEO by vBSEO 3.5.0