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Old 09-19-2012, 09:15 PM   #17521
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And some one thinks that a 21.5 class would be better? I read the couple of post before this and I would like to give my input on this subject as I'm a avid 17.5 mini cooper racer. I raced in 3 tcs races this year and continued to race the whole summer with the same mini cooper and had no problems with gears or universals. As for the speed I don't see a huge difference in the speed and its certainly controllable even with the premounts which I ran in the 3 TCS races, I won 2 of them and Tq'ed 1, my pace was only 6 seconds up on the silvercan mini's. I continued to run throughout the summer and won or came in 2nd in most of the outdoor racing. If Tamiya is wanting to go the 21.5 route then I'm sure that I'm not the only one that will be done with TCS racing. I raced the silvercan mini's along time and faired pretty well, but after trying the 17.5 I was hooked, very little maintenance on the motor and very little use of my lipo. Just a win win in my opinion.

I'm sure everyone has their opinion and they have that right this is just my opinion.
First let me congratulate you on your many good results. You're obviously a very fast Mini driver and would be a great loss to the TCS "community". My efforts are much more modest than yours, but I do enjoy participating in the Series and will continue to do so even though some of the things they do strain logic.

The question still remains tho, what would you do with a class that had only a few entries????? Especially one that was offered mainly to investigate the possibilities going B/L in the Mini class. I'm not one of the "IN" crowd so my opinions are rarely sought and when offered, given much weight. I'd suggest you go to the Tamiya thread in the Racing forum and post your threats and opinions there. Fred posts and reads that thread. Probably doesn't pay much attention to this one.

Just posted what I'd been hearing. Did not expect a couple of guys to throw a "hissy" fit.
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Old 09-19-2012, 09:26 PM   #17522
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"84312 M-06R Chassis Kit" from what I have been able to find out/ see, is instead of blue aluminum part, they are red?... including the shocks,...but that is just a pic I saw at:
http://tamiyablog.com/
Red plastic parts? Yuck....reminds me of the TA02.
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Old 09-19-2012, 09:38 PM   #17523
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Where did you see info leading you to think TCS was going to 21.5 for mini pro. I think it actually will grow the class. With a 21.5 for mini the class becomes pretty much maintainence free. Just set the car up and leave it. Cars will last for a long time. And the best drivers will prevail. It would now become an even better 2nd class or a 3rd class on club nights because you wouldn'nt have to take away any tuning time from your other cars.

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Looks like the TCS Mini Pro class will be going to 21.5 B/L next year. Don't know how many on this thread race the TCS series, but just posted it as information. TCS usually goes with major manufacturers so all of the speedos and motors should be available from the large hobby shops and from your LHS.

That was the knock on the system used in Australia in that trying to find one was like trying to fins a "speakeasy" in the days of Prohibition. To my very young friends and non USA friends there was a time that alcoholic beverages were illegal in this country. Thus the term Prohibition and an illegal, underground bar was termed a "speakeasy". How products are distributed are a little different in the various locals. What might be widely available in one area may be vastly different in another country.

Seems like a good solution cause the experiment with 17.5s was not totally successful. They were too fast and were too much for the spec tire we were expected to run. They worked better in the "outlaw" races which allowed the smaller 55mm tire which have a lot more "grip". The other problem was they were very hard on the drivetrain and reduced universals to junk in half the time and outdrives were notching on very little run time.

Sorry, "grip" is caveman for traction or the coefficient of friction between the tire and the track surface. Come to think of it, so is "loose" and "slick" in other contexts. But then, I drink my coffee from a "mug", like women with "boobs" and "legs", a fan of "big" cars and "sprint" cars without "wings" on "dirt" but realize it was way too dangerous, and think that F1 is the ultimate form of racing. Altho, my favorites were the "midgets".
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Old 09-19-2012, 10:09 PM   #17524
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Red plastic parts? Yuck....reminds me of the TA02.
Looks like there's some red plastic, some red alloy, maybe some silver or greyish plastics....looks like some Nike hightops I had in the 80's.
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Old 09-20-2012, 01:13 AM   #17525
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Where did you see info leading you to think TCS was going to 21.5 for mini pro. I think it actually will grow the class. With a 21.5 for mini the class becomes pretty much maintainence free. Just set the car up and leave it. Cars will last for a long time. And the best drivers will prevail. It would now become an even better 2nd class or a 3rd class on club nights because you wouldn'nt have to take away any tuning time from your other cars.
The Tamiya USA track is my second home and am there almost every Saturday. Consequently, you hear "stuff" and occasionally get to see some "stuff" before most. Was just doing my Hedda Hopper gig. For those who don't know of her, she was a gossip columnist years ago. She wasn't always right and neither am I.

My conclusions came from comments Fred "hisself" made after driving a 21.5 powered Mini and other conversations with others more in the know. So far everything I've heard indicates it'll be a 21.5 class. But as many veteran TCS racers know, Fred does as Fred does.
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Old 09-20-2012, 01:35 AM   #17526
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Well, I haven't been on these forums or at a track since Feruary and I was hoping that the brushless motor size/power issue would have been resolved by now here in So. Cal.. I am getting back into running my mini's again, but having to mess with the silvercan motors to be competetive is not something I have time to deal with. It is one of the main reasons I got out of the scene for a while. Grandpa, have you guys narrowed down the brushless motor choices (brands)yet or are you waiting for tcs to make one official?
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Old 09-20-2012, 04:55 AM   #17527
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Grandpa, it definetly was not my intent to throw a "hissy" or wine, just my opinion. I love racing mini and push the class very hard at my home track and was very happy when Tamiya offered this class. A lot of times change has to be forced before people acept change, I just feel most of your upper level mini drivers are set in their ways and don't want to change and that is their right. I for one have already emailed Fred mainly because the survey I took led me to believe that Tamiya was heading the 21.5 direction. I'm just saying that if they go the 21.5 route then I will not be racing tcs because usually that is the only class I run, but that is me.

I will continue to push the 17.5 mini class at my home track even if this change is made. We have a pretty large mini crowd and most have already switched and love it since their is less maintanence, speeds are up just a little with very little setup change to the cars.

Like I said in my 1st post, this is just my 2 cents. I love mini racing but I feel this is a bad move, brushless is the new era. I'm sure when Tamiya changed the other classes to brushless their was racers that didn't like the new change.
Besides all of that, why would you call it mini pro if your going slower?
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Old 09-20-2012, 04:58 AM   #17528
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rcdave1/SMcD,
We are all very happy for you and your success at TCS b/l Mini racing. You must be quite the racers. Our experience at Aliso Viejo is a little different. Our fastest Silver Can Minis lap in the low 17's, fastest 17.5s lap in the high 15's (these times are of course very dependent on the particular track layout). We have been having 8-minute races, so that's about 2 laps difference. Not 6 seconds.
Most of us are using the plastic swing shaft protecters. With those, I haven't noticed much wear problem. Not TCS legal, but only takes a few minutes to change outdrives. Grandpa's wear problems may be due to other factors...
Fred Emailed a survey to the TCS racers, and some of the questions suggest the venerable Silver Can MAY be on the way out, presumably to be replaced with 21.5. One big healthy class, minimal maintenance, reliable motors, what's not to like?
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Old 09-20-2012, 06:00 AM   #17529
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rcdave1/SMcD,
We are all very happy for you and your success at TCS b/l Mini racing. You must be quite the racers. Our experience at Aliso Viejo is a little different. Our fastest Silver Can Minis lap in the low 17's, fastest 17.5s lap in the high 15's (these times are of course very dependent on the particular track layout). We have been having 8-minute races, so that's about 2 laps difference. Not 6 seconds.
Most of us are using the plastic swing shaft protecters. With those, I haven't noticed much wear problem. Not TCS legal, but only takes a few minutes to change outdrives. Grandpa's wear problems may be due to other factors...
Fred Emailed a survey to the TCS racers, and some of the questions suggest the venerable Silver Can MAY be on the way out, presumably to be replaced with 21.5. One big healthy class, minimal maintenance, reliable motors, what's not to like?
I like the idea of going to 21.5 in the mini class - I've only ever run silver can in my mini and I can say, without hesitation, I'd park my mini if the class went to 17.5 BL

I've see the results for several TCS races over here on the east coast, and the mini pro class was NOT well attendant..I know the TCS at Jackson, there were only 2 guys pre-registered, with the 3rd added the morning on the event - and I believe he only ran 1 qualifer and maybe the main

and that cannot be a good way to run the class..I believe 1 brushless option is the best for the class - and i don't see 17.5 as being it

but that's my 2 cents - and I've been running tcs for a bunch of years
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Old 09-20-2012, 07:13 AM   #17530
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I'm kind of surprised about the comments on 17.5 vs 21.5
Here at our track, when we decided to try brushless, we started with 21.5 motors and they couldn't keep up with the silver cans. The 17.5 motors seem to be dead on with a good silver can. In fact in the last series I switched out my 17.5 for silver can half way through the season and ran the same lap times.
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Old 09-20-2012, 07:25 AM   #17531
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Frankly, I wish Tamiya would rule on a motor type for the upcoming season, giving racers enough time to invest in whatever technology will be needed to comply with the TCS changes. I only run silver can and was disappointed to see such a low turnou for 17.5 at the TCS Jackson NJ race which had more overall entries than the Tamiya Nationals. The inconsistency with the silver cans is frustrating but we've learned to live with it. If Tamiya was to go a brushless route, I hope they make it such that the speedo will be limited and spec'd as well. It would be great if Tamiya offered in the future a spec brushless motor and spec speedo. Thereby completely eliminating any. Lack box voodoo. I'm not and advocate for increasing the price to TCS racing, but by doing so will eliminate the impression that newbees need to invest in a $200 brushless speedo to go fast in brushless mini. If Tamiya produced a motor / speedo combo within $75 an or included it in RTR kits, racers would pony up knowing the voodoo has been eliminated. I for one was reluctant to move away from silver can F1 to 21.5 but did so when the rules changed...my speedo and motor cost more than the kit. That doesn't make sense. Just my 2 cents. In New Rochelle NY, mini cooper racing on carpet is the biggest class with at least 20+ drivers on any given Sunday. Each of us is waiting for Tamiya to make a decision. What we don't want is to dilute the class by breaking it up between silver can and brushless.
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Old 09-20-2012, 07:25 AM   #17532
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I'm kind of surprised about the comments on 17.5 vs 21.5
Here at our track, when we decided to try brushless, we started with 21.5 motors and they couldn't keep up with the silver cans. The 17.5 motors seem to be dead on with a good silver can. In fact in the last series I switched out my 17.5 for silver can half way through the season and ran the same lap times.
That's pretty much how it has been at the tracks I've been to. The 17.5's are pretty much in line with the silvercans just less motor maintanence.
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Old 09-20-2012, 07:52 AM   #17533
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As a long time silver can racer I would like to stay with them.
Because of cost I know bl is the way to go but some need to look at cost.
Looking from a new drive stand point why would I want to pay from a BL system that costs as much as the kit??? Just to race the car.
just my 2c worth..
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Old 09-20-2012, 09:55 AM   #17534
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I'm kind of surprised about the comments on 17.5 vs 21.5
Here at our track, when we decided to try brushless, we started with 21.5 motors and they couldn't keep up with the silver cans. The 17.5 motors seem to be dead on with a good silver can. In fact in the last series I switched out my 17.5 for silver can half way through the season and ran the same lap times.
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That's pretty much how it has been at the tracks I've been to. The 17.5's are pretty much in line with the silvercans just less motor maintanence.
I guess our differing experiences may be due to different tracks. Here it is almost dangerous to run a Silvercan car with 17.5 powered cars due to the huge disparity in straight line speed.

It also could be how much advance you're using. My 17.5 car has a KO BLZ350 speedo and a Novak Ballistic. The timing on the motor is set to 50+ degrees of advance. The motor did nothing till we cranked past the label. Maybe you just haven't added enough timing.
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Old 09-20-2012, 10:02 AM   #17535
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I guess our differing experiences may be due to different tracks. Here it is almost dangerous to run a Silvercan car with 17.5 powered cars due to the huge disparity in straight line speed.

It also could be how much advance you're using. My 17.5 car has a KO BLZ350 speedo and a Novak Ballistic. The timing on the motor is set to 50+ degrees of advance. The motor did nothing till we cranked past the label. Maybe you just haven't added enough timing.
Maybe our track is a little more technical, but I have ran the timing past the sticker on my ballistic in every main. I'm not doubting you on the speed difference just haven't seen it here on the east coast. When I run my team powers motor and set the iming to 60 degrees then it becomes ballistic against the typical silver can but still drivable. It really don't matter which way tcs decides to go because we will continue our 17.5 class at my home track and maybe I'll go back and try the silvercan again for tcs, I've just always hated the motor wars that go on with silvercans.
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