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Old 08-17-2012, 10:09 AM   #17401
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Originally Posted by niznai View Post
A 21.5 might look similar in RPM range to a silvercan on paper but in pulling power is eons away. The torque these things have is completely on a different scale to silvercans (even good ones). Running minis is probably not the best way to notice since their limited gearing does not make use of the torque of a BL 21.5.

Not to mention longevity. I personally run two seasons in novice, one on silvercans, one on 21.5BL and I went through about 10 silvercans whilst the 21.5 has to this day the same performance it had new.

With timing boosting ESCs these days, it doesn't matter if physical timing can be altered on BL motors or not.
Sorry, but was only referring to a unique situation we have in the TCS series. In Mini, boosted escs are not used, but motors with variable timing are. Fortunately or unfortunately, a limited number of esc and motors are on the approved list. Under these conditions, the 17.5 is very much quicker than a silver can, but the 21.5 might be more in line. The performance difference between the 17.5 and the Silvercan are is so great that the two rarely run together. It seems to me that the Can and a 21.5 may be close enough together in performance to run together. Having not done so yet, this is merely a supposition. And I'm referring only to Minis.

How did you ever manage to go thru 10 Silvercans in 1 season of racing??? If you overgear, overheat or otherwise abuse any motor, you will destroy it. Too often, racers will gear a Can to a FDR of less than 4.0 and expect it to go faster. Not true. It just may be that you may have been trying to force a can to perform with a 21.5 in conditions not conducive for this to happen. Aren't B/L motors also unlikely to last if over geared or overheated????

Are B/L motors superior to the Silvercan????? By all means YES and in just about any way you could think except initial cost.
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Old 08-17-2012, 12:29 PM   #17402
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Mabuchi RS-540SH the original silver can. And the only one that should be legal.


To get the power based upon the curve i believe the formula is:

(Nm x rpm)/9550 = kw

(7,2V): 120W - 12000 O/min
(6.0V): 84W - 10000 O/min
(4,8V): 53W - 8000 O/min

peak rpm: 23 400 O/min

http://forum.radiostyrt.no/vb/showth...tor-registeret
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Old 08-17-2012, 01:14 PM   #17403
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You should probably know the 7520 version of that motor is not the standard silver can. 75 refers to the wire size and 20 to the number of turns. Silver cans are the 6527 model. The black can is a 23t. If I recall correctly, the wire number was around 72.

I tested a 7520 once in a mini with stock gearing. It got REALLY hot and the torque was garbage. Good motor for a vacuum cleaner, though. I've also got an as yet unidentified silver can that spins to 30,000rpms at 6v and the brushes aren't even seated yet. Torque is also not the strong suit.

...and this is why spec brushless systems are taking over. Too many silver cans out there. I do miss them, though.
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Old 08-17-2012, 05:24 PM   #17404
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Have any of you guys heard anything about a new diff from Tamiya?
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Old 08-17-2012, 05:34 PM   #17405
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I love brushless, brushed has way to many variables, those with money can buy 50 motors to find those with the highest rpm, or have the skills they prefer not share and tune a motor to higher rpm.

I could see BL motors with timing adjust being way faster than Silver can motors but i think the locked end-bell BL motors are very close. When we first started the Mini class in our area some had the BL motor we spec'd and some had the silver can. There wasn't much of a difference in speed.

If TCS really wants to make racing closer in this class i think they should specify a single locked end-bell BL motor. We've done this and everyone is identical in speed it just comes down to setup and driving.


Question to those seasoned drivers. What kind of diff do you run?
We started running Spools in our M05 and 03's and it makes a huge difference. I'm curious as to how many Mini drivers have switched over from a gear or ball diff to a spool?

I could not find anything in the TCS rules that stated you could not run a spool, did I miss something, are they legal?
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Old 08-17-2012, 06:46 PM   #17406
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thanks for the motor information, I was just looking into replacing the tekin redline in my mo6, on a 120ft straight it peaks a little to early
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Old 08-17-2012, 07:46 PM   #17407
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkspeedo View Post
I love brushless, brushed has way to many variables, those with money can buy 50 motors to find those with the highest rpm, or have the skills they prefer not share and tune a motor to higher rpm.

I could see BL motors with timing adjust being way faster than Silver can motors but i think the locked end-bell BL motors are very close. When we first started the Mini class in our area some had the BL motor we spec'd and some had the silver can. There wasn't much of a difference in speed.

If TCS really wants to make racing closer in this class i think they should specify a single locked end-bell BL motor. We've done this and everyone is identical in speed it just comes down to setup and driving.


Question to those seasoned drivers. What kind of diff do you run?
We started running Spools in our M05 and 03's and it makes a huge difference. I'm curious as to how many Mini drivers have switched over from a gear or ball diff to a spool?

I could not find anything in the TCS rules that stated you could not run a spool, did I miss something, are they legal?
I could be wrong here, but if you read rule 3 in the chassis section under the general rules, it seems that spools would not qualify as a legal option. The only spool that Tamiya makes is not for a Mini. Won't argue the point, but no veteran TCS Mini racers use a spool.

The powers that be at Tamiya USA seem to working on finding a equitable B/L motor and esc solution. We'll just have to see what they conclude. When you're running a Series involving hundreds, if not thousands of participants, things can get complicated.
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Old 08-17-2012, 07:55 PM   #17408
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I will have to wait and see if Tamiya USA will have a B/L system or not. It would be nice to get one from the get go like that. The M05 Mini would be my only Tamiya in my car collection and I want the beetle body also
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Old 08-17-2012, 08:59 PM   #17409
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Granpa View Post
I could be wrong here, but if you read rule 3 in the chassis section under the general rules, it seems that spools would not qualify as a legal option. The only spool that Tamiya makes is not for a Mini. Won't argue the point, but no veteran TCS Mini racers use a spool.

The powers that be at Tamiya USA seem to working on finding a equitable B/L motor and esc solution. We'll just have to see what they conclude. When you're running a Series involving hundreds, if not thousands of participants, things can get complicated.
I guess this rule would cover an actual spool like in a Touring car since Tamiya does not make one for a mini.

But if you make one from the gear diff that comes with the car this would be legal? To clarify what i've done in my car, I've placed extra washers in the gear diff so when re-assembled the diff acts like a spool, very little to no diff action. I believe most people do this today correct?

I would hope this does not fall under Rule 4, and since it's not a hop-up part it would not fall under rule 3.

When i made this setup change to the car i immediately went .5sec faster on average.
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Old 08-17-2012, 09:44 PM   #17410
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Originally Posted by MikeFrazer View Post
---snip--- I want the beetle body also
I like the Beetle too, but I believe that Tamiya has discontinued it. From the Tamiya USA website:
item# 84185 RC Body Set Volkswagen Beetle


Tamiya must have a 3rd party source manufacture their bodies. It appears they contract for X number of bodies and then "discontinue" the body when the supply is sold out. This is pure guesswork of course.

I would love to be able to buy the Alfa Giulia Sprint body from Tamiya or a reputable online shop like Speedtech, TQ, or Tower whenever I want one. Same goes for the VW. Sadly, it does not work that way. As near as I can tell Tamiya has discontinued all of the bodies that fit the M06 except for two [one SWB & one MWB, no LWB]. It is a good thing there are other companies who offer bodies that fit [mostly in SWB or MWB].
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Old 08-17-2012, 10:21 PM   #17411
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Tamiya has the Alfa Giulia Sprint body you just need to buy it in parts/ I got one 2 weeks ago.
Body
https://www.tamiyausa.com/product/it...uct-id=1825421
H Parts (chrome parts)
https://www.tamiyausa.com/product/it...uct-id=9005512
Decals and window masks
https://www.tamiyausa.com/product/it...uct-id=9495256
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Old 08-17-2012, 10:52 PM   #17412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkspeedo View Post
But if you make one from the gear diff that comes with the car this would be legal? To clarify what i've done in my car, I've placed extra washers in the gear diff so when re-assembled the diff acts like a spool, very little to no diff action. I believe most people do this today correct?
Tamiya is pretty strict on this one and doesn't allow for creative interpretation. When they say "Any Tamiya Hop-Up Option and spare part is allowed and legal as long as it is used in the way it was designed." If they designed the gear diff to have one washer per side, that's going to be it.

They also cover it by saying "It is strictly forbidden to re-engineer or modify the car in any way..." By adding extra washers, you're adding parts to manipulate (re-engineer) the function of the differential.

I'm not saying what you're doing is morally wrong, but TCS techs take the rules seriously. If anything, maybe it will save you some hassle. In any case, I run a Yeah Racing spool in my car sometimes and I love it. It's murder on tires, though.

Jim
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Old 08-18-2012, 08:23 AM   #17413
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Originally Posted by Big Fran View Post
Tamiya has the Alfa Giulia Sprint body you just need to buy it in parts/ I got one 2 weeks ago.
Body
https://www.tamiyausa.com/product/it...uct-id=1825421
H Parts (chrome parts)
https://www.tamiyausa.com/product/it...uct-id=9005512
Decals and window masks
https://www.tamiyausa.com/product/it...uct-id=9495256
Wow! That made my day! Thanks!!

Shame on Tamiya though for not showing a picture or giving any more than a minimal description. I certainly would not have paid $34 for a "body" w/o description or picture.

Since you made the bold move, I'll order a couple now
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Old 08-18-2012, 08:33 AM   #17414
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Originally Posted by bencason View Post
Wow! That made my day! Thanks!!

Shame on Tamiya though for not showing a picture or giving any more than a minimal description. I certainly would not have paid $34 for a "body" w/o description or picture.

Since you made the bold move, I'll order a couple now
Happy to help. I looked for a long time to find the body too. Here is mine all painted up...



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Old 08-18-2012, 09:00 AM   #17415
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17.5 and TCS legal silver cans run very similar lap times at our tracks with the silver cans usually getting the faster lap times. Maybe because they weigh less?? Torque means nothing in a mini. Cars too light tires too small. Those that want to try 21.5, I hope you enjoy watching paint dry. I would not spend any $$ on a 21.5 motor (but I don't run F1). If your intention is to kill the brushless mini class, spec a 21.5 - have fun!! Brushless mini racing is WAAAYY cheaper than silver can over the long run - there's no debating the point.

The current TCS rules for brushless mini class are fine. You can get a cheap speedo and one b/l motor for the rest of your life and be fine in b/l mini TCS racing. Spec-ing another brushless system to make people spend more $$ over what they already have will hurt the class, but maybe, that's what people want.
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