1LikesU.S. Vintage Trans-Am Racing
10-27-2008, 10:26 AM
#2911
Our track in Omaha is almost all 21.5 for a couple reasons
1. Track is very heavy into lipo.
2. Because of #1 people are buying a new motor 21.5 rather than new NIMH's
3. Brushed motors are dead here
So the 21.5 is by far the fastest option here. Those that are running brushed are running old batteries and old motors which equals not up to speed. Those running 17.5's are running old batteries which equals not up to speed. Yet I'm running a 21.5 with a 2 year old lipo and am as fast as anyone and faster than some. Anyone fast here that could keep up with a 17.5 or brushed motor switched because they saw an advantage to the 21.5 in lap times and ease of use with the lipo/21.5. Personally I was really surprised that the FDR was 4.2... just seemed to fast. So.....
We did a little experiment of lowering the FDR on a couple cars to 5.0.... I'll be danged but they had the fastest laps. Those running 4.2's or so had them on the straights but the overall lap times were close. So raising the FDR for the 21.5 will only slow them on the straights not sure they still won't have an advantage.
Lastly I personally think the options now are a little fast... I really liked the speed when the FDR restriction was on the 17.5's. I'm not whining to slow it down because I'm getting killed... I actually won our last point series in VTA. From our experience I think a 4.8 - 5.0 would seem to be more equal in speed for all options... but like I said we don't have people trying real hard to make 17.5's or brushed options go fast... they just switch. We basically just trust others to tell us that the other options are just as fast because we don't see it at all.
The Midwest Carpet Onroad Championships just ran this last weekend in Omaha and the A main of 10 cars was dominated by 21.5's. I think the only car running a 17.5 qualified 6th.
1. Track is very heavy into lipo.
2. Because of #1 people are buying a new motor 21.5 rather than new NIMH's
3. Brushed motors are dead here
So the 21.5 is by far the fastest option here. Those that are running brushed are running old batteries and old motors which equals not up to speed. Those running 17.5's are running old batteries which equals not up to speed. Yet I'm running a 21.5 with a 2 year old lipo and am as fast as anyone and faster than some. Anyone fast here that could keep up with a 17.5 or brushed motor switched because they saw an advantage to the 21.5 in lap times and ease of use with the lipo/21.5. Personally I was really surprised that the FDR was 4.2... just seemed to fast. So.....
We did a little experiment of lowering the FDR on a couple cars to 5.0.... I'll be danged but they had the fastest laps. Those running 4.2's or so had them on the straights but the overall lap times were close. So raising the FDR for the 21.5 will only slow them on the straights not sure they still won't have an advantage.
Lastly I personally think the options now are a little fast... I really liked the speed when the FDR restriction was on the 17.5's. I'm not whining to slow it down because I'm getting killed... I actually won our last point series in VTA. From our experience I think a 4.8 - 5.0 would seem to be more equal in speed for all options... but like I said we don't have people trying real hard to make 17.5's or brushed options go fast... they just switch. We basically just trust others to tell us that the other options are just as fast because we don't see it at all.
The Midwest Carpet Onroad Championships just ran this last weekend in Omaha and the A main of 10 cars was dominated by 21.5's. I think the only car running a 17.5 qualified 6th.
Last edited by padailey; 10-27-2008 at 10:58 AM.
10-27-2008, 10:27 AM
#2912
Tech Regular
Hi, I'm setting up my son's KX1 with a 17.5 and 4 cell nimh. All 4 of my available sc's don't work properly-CC Sidewinder, CC Mamba Max, Schulze 18.61K and LMT 4018. Any suggestions on an economical sc that will do the job? Thanks, Don
10-27-2008, 10:41 AM
#2913
Based on my feedback from a few different tracks, it's not in the USVTA's best interest to have the fast T/A cars within a few tenths of the fast Stock Rubber (17.5/LiPo/6-cell) cars. Granted the weights are different, but there needs to be more separation from Stock class. If a FTD in Stock is a 10.9 and the FTD in T/A is an 11.2, that's too close, IMO.
I think that is key here. I think guys using old batteries and not maintaining the brushed motors will see a definitely drop off in competitiveness. This isn't something that is necessarily a bad thing. If you want to stick with NiMh technology, that's your choice—but you will pay the price at some point.
What we are trying to achieve is equal play for all three options at their highest performance potential. Most of the testing done initially on these options for the USVTA rules was done with relatively NEW and current batteries (NiMh) and very well-prepped motors (brushed and brushless). If there are guys using 4-cell packs from last year, they just aren't going to keep up, no matter what we do to the FDR rules.
All in all, given the choice for any new or old racer, the 21.5/LiPo option is by far the best place to start, right from square one. Lowest maintenance, lowest long-term cost and the strongest, most consistent performance—which will allow all of us to focus more on driving and car setup, making all of us better drivers. And the result is, the racing should only get better.
doug
What we are trying to achieve is equal play for all three options at their highest performance potential. Most of the testing done initially on these options for the USVTA rules was done with relatively NEW and current batteries (NiMh) and very well-prepped motors (brushed and brushless). If there are guys using 4-cell packs from last year, they just aren't going to keep up, no matter what we do to the FDR rules.
All in all, given the choice for any new or old racer, the 21.5/LiPo option is by far the best place to start, right from square one. Lowest maintenance, lowest long-term cost and the strongest, most consistent performance—which will allow all of us to focus more on driving and car setup, making all of us better drivers. And the result is, the racing should only get better.
doug
10-27-2008, 10:51 AM
#2914
yep in omaha last weekend the 21.5 was lots faster then 17.5 with new cells in the car(Zaire). so that is not the issue. I saw the same thing a few weeks back at the club race were the red flags went up for us on the 21.5 lipo issue.
I am not sure if you can fix it with a higher FDR but it is a big starting point. The cars are too fast in current config, slow it down across the board would be ok. but definatly bring the 21.5 back to the stock (27t/17.5) speed keeping the cars slowed down will make for a stronger future and better racing. as they speed up the ability to pack drive goes down. the bump scrub push that has really made this class evolve goes away and the cars become brittle the faster they go.
I hate to say this but When you want to go fast we have these classes, 12th 10th foam or rubber lets not just make it another spec tire fast class.
I am not sure if you can fix it with a higher FDR but it is a big starting point. The cars are too fast in current config, slow it down across the board would be ok. but definatly bring the 21.5 back to the stock (27t/17.5) speed keeping the cars slowed down will make for a stronger future and better racing. as they speed up the ability to pack drive goes down. the bump scrub push that has really made this class evolve goes away and the cars become brittle the faster they go.
I hate to say this but When you want to go fast we have these classes, 12th 10th foam or rubber lets not just make it another spec tire fast class.
10-27-2008, 03:09 PM
#2917
Tech Regular
OK, thanks. I'm going to set me and my son up with USVTA cars. Don
10-27-2008, 03:29 PM
#2918
I run a Tekin RS in my 13.5 sedan and love it. Works great, tiny, light, and very versatile. You pretty much have to have the Hotwire interface to get the best out of it though, so that pushes it up above $200, which I don't consider economical. You get what you pay for though, at least when running higher-performance motors.
That being said, I'll ask a similar question. I'm going to try the 21.5/lipo route and could use a recommendation on an ESC. At this level, does a high-end ESC really make a difference? Will an ESC like a Novak XBR Sport do the trick just fine? Is there another inexpensive yet effective option? How about an Associated AI?
That being said, I'll ask a similar question. I'm going to try the 21.5/lipo route and could use a recommendation on an ESC. At this level, does a high-end ESC really make a difference? Will an ESC like a Novak XBR Sport do the trick just fine? Is there another inexpensive yet effective option? How about an Associated AI?
10-27-2008, 03:32 PM
#2919
I think guys using old batteries and not maintaining the brushed motors will see a definitely drop off in competitiveness. This isn't something that is necessarily a bad thing. If you want to stick with NiMh technology, that's your choice—but you will pay the price at some point.
What we are trying to achieve is equal play for all three options at their highest performance potential. Most of the testing done initially on these options for the USVTA rules was done with relatively NEW and current batteries (NiMh) and very well-prepped motors (brushed and brushless). If there are guys using 4-cell packs from last year, they just aren't going to keep up, no matter what we do to the FDR rules.
All in all, given the choice for any new or old racer, the 21.5/LiPo option is by far the best place to start, right from square one. Lowest maintenance, lowest long-term cost and the strongest, most consistent performance—which will allow all of us to focus more on driving and car setup, making all of us better drivers. And the result is, the racing should only get better.
doug
What we are trying to achieve is equal play for all three options at their highest performance potential. Most of the testing done initially on these options for the USVTA rules was done with relatively NEW and current batteries (NiMh) and very well-prepped motors (brushed and brushless). If there are guys using 4-cell packs from last year, they just aren't going to keep up, no matter what we do to the FDR rules.
All in all, given the choice for any new or old racer, the 21.5/LiPo option is by far the best place to start, right from square one. Lowest maintenance, lowest long-term cost and the strongest, most consistent performance—which will allow all of us to focus more on driving and car setup, making all of us better drivers. And the result is, the racing should only get better.
doug
Back when brushless systems were coming of age, there used to be a lot of argument about the new motors being so expensive, and having to buy an ESC for it as well. One group says that the BL system is just too expensive compared to the brushed. The other group says look at the maintenance, the life and the performance and you will see that the BL system is actually the cheaper way to go. Plus the performance is always on top. Just keep it from overheating and keep the bearings in good shape.
Now with lipo on the scene you have a battery that will perform without all of the mainenance you had to do with the Nimh. It will still run hard after its a year or two old.
10-27-2008, 05:58 PM
#2920
consolidated results and a little info for the 21.5 lipo vs 17.5 4 cell. 17.5 4 cell was very fast and finished second between a couple of high powered 21.5 cars.
13.5 rubber
Mike Haynes #1 28 5:11.236 11.082
t/a
21.5 lipo tq & win
Mike Haynes #1 37 8:02.386 12.657
4 cell 17.5 finished 2nd
Mike Collins #2 37 8:12.338 13.043
finished 3rd 21.5 lipo
Chris Goetz #6 36 8:01.787 12.822
6 cell 17.5 foam
Brandon Shells #1 28 5:01.406 10.892
big seperation on the track about 20% difference between t/a and either of the other two classes, even more for lower mains.
This is hard facts, showing the seperation between top level drivers, so you are seeing just how close the cars are together for 17.5 4cell and 21.5 lipo there is big seperation for the classes and the lower mains show that even more.
Also if anyone can make it to cincinnati this weekend to help kick off the trans am class, come on out should be a blast, 3 qualifiers and a main, all VTA rules apply email me at [email protected]
13.5 rubber
Mike Haynes #1 28 5:11.236 11.082
t/a
21.5 lipo tq & win
Mike Haynes #1 37 8:02.386 12.657
4 cell 17.5 finished 2nd
Mike Collins #2 37 8:12.338 13.043
finished 3rd 21.5 lipo
Chris Goetz #6 36 8:01.787 12.822
6 cell 17.5 foam
Brandon Shells #1 28 5:01.406 10.892
big seperation on the track about 20% difference between t/a and either of the other two classes, even more for lower mains.
This is hard facts, showing the seperation between top level drivers, so you are seeing just how close the cars are together for 17.5 4cell and 21.5 lipo there is big seperation for the classes and the lower mains show that even more.
Also if anyone can make it to cincinnati this weekend to help kick off the trans am class, come on out should be a blast, 3 qualifiers and a main, all VTA rules apply email me at [email protected]
10-27-2008, 06:42 PM
#2922
Mike Haynes was super fast at the Gate, but his car was totally on point, along with his proven driving skills. There were several cars that were just as fast down the straight. I didn't realize Mike Collins had a 17.5, since his car was just as fast as the rest.
I hope Seaball will come on this thread, as he did not run 21.5 until Sunday (borrowed a motor). I think he could shed some light here.
PS about sweet sweet V8 rumble: the motor sound apparently does NOT work correctly with brushless. After the race, I temp'd my motor at 150*F. Way too hot. The instructions say it doesn't work with brushless
but I hooked it up anyway, and it worked. I do have the feeling the 2 wires you have to run off the motor may have been creating some sort of short in the system
I hope Seaball will come on this thread, as he did not run 21.5 until Sunday (borrowed a motor). I think he could shed some light here.
PS about sweet sweet V8 rumble: the motor sound apparently does NOT work correctly with brushless. After the race, I temp'd my motor at 150*F. Way too hot. The instructions say it doesn't work with brushless
but I hooked it up anyway, and it worked. I do have the feeling the 2 wires you have to run off the motor may have been creating some sort of short in the system
How you been Billy? 