ROAR B/L motor Rules debate thread

C_O_jones · 01-02-2008, 04:15 PM

To combine the 3 current ROAR threads that are now ongoing about B/L.

miller tyme · 01-02-2008, 04:33 PM

Dump the 19t class and replace it with 13.5, almost as fast and more competitive.

yyhayyim · 01-02-2008, 05:03 PM

I dont understand what your saying: 13.5 will replace 19T, so what will be of 10.5 motors? Stock will be 27T brushed motors only?

John Tag · 01-02-2008, 05:03 PM

I agree with Ken Miller

Dawn Sanchez · 01-02-2008, 05:04 PM

what about 17.5?

why not dump stock in ROAR nationals and promote only 19T or mod and equivalent BL's?

Matt Howard · 01-02-2008, 05:09 PM

are any of these new rules going to be in place in time for the carpet nats in march? That race is about 2 months out and now we're talking about new rules for 2008

just curious

Dawn Sanchez · 01-02-2008, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Howard

are any of these new rules going to be in place in time for the carpet nats in march? That race is about 2 months out and now we're talking about new rules for 2008

just curious

yea.... they will.

Excom meets in about 10 days to finalize the 2008 rule book. (late start, sorry.. just got the job 2 weeks ago

)

We are working very closely with the track host regarding several ideas and deviation requests he has made. There will be plenty of time for racers attending the Carpet Nats in Mid March. I realize this is cutting it close.. but it always is with this particular event.. I hate that.

SWTour · 01-02-2008, 05:17 PM

My .02c says

STOCK SPEED B/L Class - 17.5

INTERMEDIATE SPEED B/L Class - 13.5

EXPERT SPEED B/L Class - 10.5

PRO/EXPERT (FACTORY BACKED) OPEN MODIFIED w/ ANY Brushed and/or ANY Brushless...sensored and non-sensored. (No Hybrids)

Matt Howard · 01-02-2008, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dawn Sanchez

yea.... they will.

Excom meets in about 10 days to finalize the 2008 rule book. (late start, sorry.. just got the job 2 weeks ago

)

We are working very closely with the track host regarding several ideas and deviation requests he has made. There will be plenty of time for racers attending the Carpet Nats in Mid March. I realize this is cutting it close.. but it always is with this particular event.. I hate that.

Thanks, while I'm not a representative for the Plex, I do work there part time so I know they've got their plate full as well.

Ike · 01-02-2008, 05:32 PM

Just about every track in the country that allows BL has been using 10.5 as the replacement for 19T and 13.5 as a replacement for stock. In other words, many people already have those systems, ROAR changing that fairly widely accepted format will make things more expensive for those that already have systems. Yes, I know people would just have to buy a new motor, but BL motors aren't cheap. Plus, I've heard of people having issues even being able to gear high enough with a 17.5 in a pan car. Which then all of the sudden means there may be certain cars that will become obsolete in favor of car designs that allow for more pinion, people buying pinions they wouldn't normally use, etc.

It just doesn't seem feasible to find a close match with a stock motor and a brushed motor at this time with what is currently available. Doesn't it seem likely that if 13.5 was allowed to run in stock class that brushed motors would become obsolete (it's already happening), at least for a while... If 17.5 is allowed to run with stock brusless motors will be dumped in favor of a good brushed stock motor. Does ROAR feel comfortable with either of those things happening? It seems to be that weight allowance is the one thing that could help even up the current technology of brushed vs. brushless. It's something that many real racing series use as an equalizer and it's cheap... Increase the weight required for 13.5 and or decrease the weight for 27T. The problem is those weights need some tuime to be researched, I don't see it as something that can get worked out in a couple weeks time.

Scottrik · 01-02-2008, 05:38 PM

Weight breaks/penalties aren't the answer either as there is a BIG difference in the effect if you're talking about a tighter, more technical track or an open sweeping track. The effect of weight is amplified in the former and minimized in the latter.

The whole concept/attempt at "equivalency" formulae is what is slowing the whole process down. When brushless are accepted it will need to be in it's own class (other than Mod) and the "similar" brushed classes will either live or die.

I, personally, hate to see them go. I'm worth doodly as a motor "tuner" but I can 100% appreciate that the ability to do so is still a BIG part of the hobby to a lot of folks.

jiml · 01-02-2008, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scottrik

I, personally, hate to see them go. I'm worth doodly as a motor "tuner" but I can 100% appreciate that the ability to do so is still a BIG part of the hobby to a lot of folks.

When I started racing there was a class specifically tailored for motor tuners. It was called modified!

Stock racing was supposed to be everyone had the same motor, and the same power. Replacing brushes or springs means you have changed, or modified, the motor. Kinda defeats the purpose.

But that is a totally different argument that has been argued for years, and not part of this thread, but it is what's driving brushless.

kn7671 · 01-02-2008, 05:57 PM

I think this is rather easy.

1. Keep the stock 27T class alone.
2. Create a new 13.5 Stock class.

What this does is create two stock classes, and allow the club or race event holder to have one or the other.

For 13.5 to truely become the new stock, we have to create a SPEC 13.5 design. I hate to see all the existing 13.5 motors become obsolete, but since ROAR is so late to the game here, we have a big problem. You have optional rotors, timing advance features in the motors and/or ECS's.

SWTour · 01-02-2008, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IKE

Just about every track in the country that allows BL has been using 10.5 as the replacement for 19T and 13.5 as a replacement for stock.

And MANY of them have found the 13.5s are quite abit faster than STOCK was, and they are having a hard time with NEWBIES getting their cars under control.

Don't GET RID of 13.5, but add 17.5 as an option for a more 'entry' level class.

MOST people don't currently run MOD - which I feel is one of the reasons many were pushing for 4 cell and 5 cell - to give MORE control to OPEN mod motors (instead of restricting the motors in the first place)

With 4 options

17.5
13.5
10.5
OPEN MOD

you have 4 choices that will cater to virtually any speed range needed.

Oh and if you want a REALLY SLOW NOVICE bound motor - try the 21.5 we're using on the Ovals as OUR Stock Replacement for '08 (EVEN THAT MOTOR is faster than what STOCK was)

Quote:

Originally Posted by kn7671

What this does is create two stock classes, and allow the club or race event holder to have one or the other.

Clubs can set the classes to their own needs already...if I'm not mistaken...It's races like REGIONALS and NATIONALS where class structures have to be followed firmly. (And SANCTIONED events)

C_O_jones · 01-02-2008, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kn7671

I think this is rather easy.

1. Keep the stock 27T class alone.
2. Create a new 13.5 Stock class.

What this does is create two stock classes, and allow the club or race event holder to have one or the other.

What does need is create a spec 13.5 BL motor for manufacturers to base their design on. I hate to see all the existing 13.5 motors become obsolete, but since ROAR is so late to the game here, there is a problem. We really need a SPEC 13.5 BL Motor for the class to be called "Stock" replacement. Otherwise, the 13.5 BL Class will become a new class in itself, not stock, and too slow for 19T.

If all the current 13.5 motors become obsolete to create a spec BL for stock, why not just make it a 17.5 that will be able to run with current stock brushed motors?