ROAR B/L motor Rules debate thread
01-08-2008, 08:14 AM
#571
I haven't read this thread in a few days and it is nice to not see the name calling and generalizations that seem to always accompany debate threads.
The move to change to brushless and lipo has encountered the following arguments against it:
1) brushless and lipo are too fast,
2) they are too expensive,
3) they will hurt hobby shop profitability
4) there are too many choices.
I fear that those that race and prefer brushed "stock" will not be happy until the novak 21.5 is the roar equivalent to "stock". These racers will accept brushless only after the brushless motor chosen stands no chance against a tuned stock. My simple question is how many racers will be running brushed motors in 2 years?
As some have mentioned, hobby shops should make money at their tracks by charging race and practice fees and by selling consumables such as tires, bodies and spare parts. After going to brushless and lipo, my motors and batteries are no longer consumables. There are few racers left that purchase all of their race gear at the local track/hobby shop. Why? Because it is too expensive. Especially, when someone can purchase many items used on rctech, or they purchase online and save $30 or $40 dollars. There have been threads on rctech covering how tracks can increase attendance and make more money. Unfortunately, it seems that many tracks rely on the racers to bring in more people, instead of promoting and advertising their own track.
Back to the b/l motor debate. The 13.5 is the accepted new "stock" motor at tracks around the country. All of the people that are saying the 13.5 is too fast for the poor newbies, where were all of these concerned racers as the brushed stock motors got faster and faster with each generation (every 1-2 years.) If there were 3 times as many racers in r/c as there are now, you could have the 17.5/13.5/10.5/open mod classes. At our track, you have 1 full heat of stock each weekend. How do you propose they be divided up?
If this debate was only about roar rules for sanctioned races, that is 1 thing, but the underlying purpose of this debate and the new rules is to set rules for club racing around the country. If the 17.5 is adopted as the new stock, all of the brushed racers will then complain that b/l racers should only use the 17.5 in the stock class.
The move to change to brushless and lipo has encountered the following arguments against it:
1) brushless and lipo are too fast,
2) they are too expensive,
3) they will hurt hobby shop profitability
4) there are too many choices.
I fear that those that race and prefer brushed "stock" will not be happy until the novak 21.5 is the roar equivalent to "stock". These racers will accept brushless only after the brushless motor chosen stands no chance against a tuned stock. My simple question is how many racers will be running brushed motors in 2 years?
As some have mentioned, hobby shops should make money at their tracks by charging race and practice fees and by selling consumables such as tires, bodies and spare parts. After going to brushless and lipo, my motors and batteries are no longer consumables. There are few racers left that purchase all of their race gear at the local track/hobby shop. Why? Because it is too expensive. Especially, when someone can purchase many items used on rctech, or they purchase online and save $30 or $40 dollars. There have been threads on rctech covering how tracks can increase attendance and make more money. Unfortunately, it seems that many tracks rely on the racers to bring in more people, instead of promoting and advertising their own track.
Back to the b/l motor debate. The 13.5 is the accepted new "stock" motor at tracks around the country. All of the people that are saying the 13.5 is too fast for the poor newbies, where were all of these concerned racers as the brushed stock motors got faster and faster with each generation (every 1-2 years.) If there were 3 times as many racers in r/c as there are now, you could have the 17.5/13.5/10.5/open mod classes. At our track, you have 1 full heat of stock each weekend. How do you propose they be divided up?
If this debate was only about roar rules for sanctioned races, that is 1 thing, but the underlying purpose of this debate and the new rules is to set rules for club racing around the country. If the 17.5 is adopted as the new stock, all of the brushed racers will then complain that b/l racers should only use the 17.5 in the stock class.
Perhaps you also missed the point that racing across the board has gotten quite fast, and in general needs to be knocked down a notch with rules that we aren't afraid of revisiting later to keep the speeds in check.
At this point, it has less to do with equivalency and more to do with what the hobby needs going forward.
01-08-2008, 08:19 AM
#572
Well my vote as a ROAR member is:
17.5 Stock
10.5/19t
Open mod
This is coming from somebody who owns a 13.5. I agree that there really isn't much difference between a 13.5 and a 10.5.
One more thing I was thinking about, if ROAR decided to say change the specifications on stock brushed motors, then companies built new motors to meet those new specs that were faster... NO ONE would have a problem spending the $40 for new brushed motor that would last a few months at best. The way I look at it, I bought my 10.5 and 13.5 2 years ago, and probably would have been through 15+ brushed motors in the same time frame. I think the brushless motors have MORE than paid for themselves over that time period, and I have no problem buying another one.
And I want to say to Bob Stormer, VERY well said, major kudos for your "stepping in it" post.
That's my $.02
17.5 Stock
10.5/19t
Open mod
This is coming from somebody who owns a 13.5. I agree that there really isn't much difference between a 13.5 and a 10.5.
One more thing I was thinking about, if ROAR decided to say change the specifications on stock brushed motors, then companies built new motors to meet those new specs that were faster... NO ONE would have a problem spending the $40 for new brushed motor that would last a few months at best. The way I look at it, I bought my 10.5 and 13.5 2 years ago, and probably would have been through 15+ brushed motors in the same time frame. I think the brushless motors have MORE than paid for themselves over that time period, and I have no problem buying another one.
And I want to say to Bob Stormer, VERY well said, major kudos for your "stepping in it" post.
That's my $.02
01-08-2008, 08:55 AM
#573
Everyone says stock motors have gotten so fast. My argument to that is motors are only as fast as the the batteries supplying them. Battery tech (both Lipo with make the cars way lighter) and nimh have increased motor performance WAYYYYYYYY more then the increase in motor tech. Look at the numbers. 10 years ago we were running 1700 and 2000 mah nicd batteries that had 20amp number in the 1.17V range and IR in the 3.0 range. Now we are running 4200+ cells with 1.23V and IR in the 1.5-2.0 range. Look at a BL motor. They are rated in RPM's per Volt!!!!!!! If you have an old stock motor laying around throw it in your car and take it for a spin. You might be suprised to see how well it runs. I put an old Midnight sealed can stock in my car about a year ago and it ran great. Competative with the rest of the stuff I had. Not the fastest thing in my box but it ran strong.
Everything has gotten faster. Drag racing went throught the same thing. The knocked down the nitro% in the fuel. They did not change the motors. With in months they were back up to 330mph again. Nascar as this issue as well but not really with fuel. They are constantly fighting to keept he cars under 200. I guess my point is we focus on motors as this is kind of where the class is defined. Stock has gotten a lot fast with the battery technology though. So those who say it is too fast, it is not motor technology that is getting you there. My point is all venues of racing have this issue. Sanctioning bodies are always fighting to make racing safe and "fair" and racers are always trying to go faster. That is the jobs of the respective entities.
BL and Lipo are here. The consumers have spoken and they are buying up this stuff and it seems to make them happy. As they were technolgy testers and melted down speedo's and let out "magic" smoke out of lots of motors the technolgy has grown into something pretty reliable. It has come a long way in the past couple years. I think BL is great for the average racer. Will there ever be an equivalent to Brushed, no. There is no way of doing this. The two technologies are too different to say they will be the same. Should they become the new standard for santioned racing. Sounds like Roar has already spoken and think everyone should get a BL system. With most all major brand BL speedo's on the market they can run brushed and BL. It is an incrimental cost to get a Brushed motor for sanctioned racing. It is not hard to put a new motor in for that race. A lot of big races have handout motors anyway. Just a thought. I hate handout races though so guess that is not always the solution.
I guess the thing that bothers me most is there are no rules for this stuff yet. I guess they are coming and soon according to some posts I have read. After being the hobby for many years and playing by a set of rules as with all things change will come. Nascar got it with the COT and it looks like we are getting it with BL motors. Lets just get some rules to play by and move on. I think having no real rules is hurting all this debate. Make the rules and enforce them. There is no making everyone happy in this and the sanctioning bodies should have laid down the rules a while ago instead of letting it get to where it is today which is pretty much run what you brung. There is nothing wrong with that at the club level but the sanctioned racing scene needs more control.
Everything has gotten faster. Drag racing went throught the same thing. The knocked down the nitro% in the fuel. They did not change the motors. With in months they were back up to 330mph again. Nascar as this issue as well but not really with fuel. They are constantly fighting to keept he cars under 200. I guess my point is we focus on motors as this is kind of where the class is defined. Stock has gotten a lot fast with the battery technology though. So those who say it is too fast, it is not motor technology that is getting you there. My point is all venues of racing have this issue. Sanctioning bodies are always fighting to make racing safe and "fair" and racers are always trying to go faster. That is the jobs of the respective entities.
BL and Lipo are here. The consumers have spoken and they are buying up this stuff and it seems to make them happy. As they were technolgy testers and melted down speedo's and let out "magic" smoke out of lots of motors the technolgy has grown into something pretty reliable. It has come a long way in the past couple years. I think BL is great for the average racer. Will there ever be an equivalent to Brushed, no. There is no way of doing this. The two technologies are too different to say they will be the same. Should they become the new standard for santioned racing. Sounds like Roar has already spoken and think everyone should get a BL system. With most all major brand BL speedo's on the market they can run brushed and BL. It is an incrimental cost to get a Brushed motor for sanctioned racing. It is not hard to put a new motor in for that race. A lot of big races have handout motors anyway. Just a thought. I hate handout races though so guess that is not always the solution.
I guess the thing that bothers me most is there are no rules for this stuff yet. I guess they are coming and soon according to some posts I have read. After being the hobby for many years and playing by a set of rules as with all things change will come. Nascar got it with the COT and it looks like we are getting it with BL motors. Lets just get some rules to play by and move on. I think having no real rules is hurting all this debate. Make the rules and enforce them. There is no making everyone happy in this and the sanctioning bodies should have laid down the rules a while ago instead of letting it get to where it is today which is pretty much run what you brung. There is nothing wrong with that at the club level but the sanctioned racing scene needs more control.
01-08-2008, 09:08 AM
#574
My vote would have to be for:
17.5 / 27 Turn
10.5 / 19Turn
Open Mod
What I dont get is why people are against ROAR not allowing 13.5 motors. Just because ROAR doesnt allow them at their events doesnt mean your local club/track also has to ban them. Sure some of you then may have to buy a new brushless motor for a ROAR event, but it's the same cost of buying the 3-4 brushed motors you would have bought for the event anyways. Local clubs/tracks need to do what is best for their specific area if they want to promote the hobby, not necessarily what other big tracks are doing. There's my two cents.
17.5 / 27 Turn
10.5 / 19Turn
Open Mod
What I dont get is why people are against ROAR not allowing 13.5 motors. Just because ROAR doesnt allow them at their events doesnt mean your local club/track also has to ban them. Sure some of you then may have to buy a new brushless motor for a ROAR event, but it's the same cost of buying the 3-4 brushed motors you would have bought for the event anyways. Local clubs/tracks need to do what is best for their specific area if they want to promote the hobby, not necessarily what other big tracks are doing. There's my two cents.
01-08-2008, 09:23 AM
#575
My vote would have to be for:
17.5 / 27 Turn
10.5 / 19Turn
Open Mod
What I dont get is why people are against ROAR not allowing 13.5 motors. Just because ROAR doesnt allow them at their events doesnt mean your local club/track also has to ban them. Sure some of you then may have to buy a new brushless motor for a ROAR event, but it's the same cost of buying the 3-4 brushed motors you would have bought for the event anyways. Local clubs/tracks need to do what is best for their specific area if they want to promote the hobby, not necessarily what other big tracks are doing. There's my two cents.
17.5 / 27 Turn
10.5 / 19Turn
Open Mod
What I dont get is why people are against ROAR not allowing 13.5 motors. Just because ROAR doesnt allow them at their events doesnt mean your local club/track also has to ban them. Sure some of you then may have to buy a new brushless motor for a ROAR event, but it's the same cost of buying the 3-4 brushed motors you would have bought for the event anyways. Local clubs/tracks need to do what is best for their specific area if they want to promote the hobby, not necessarily what other big tracks are doing. There's my two cents.
And...
17.5 / 27 Turn
10.5 / 19Turn
Open Mod
I agree with that too.
01-08-2008, 09:33 AM
#576
With the 17.5, 10.5, to Mod progression I wonder if the jump from 17.5 to 10.5 is too big...just like Adrian and others have mentioned that in the 17.5, 13.5, to Mod progression the jump to Mod might be too big.
Darned if you do, darned if you don't.
I guess there's less toes to step on if you do 10.5 and run it with 19t; figure if guys were going to get out of "stock" they'd have done it already. I personally like 13.5 as the intermediate, but it might be more widely accepted to just leave it 10.5/19t.
Regardless, it looks like by the end of this month I'll be able to slap in some BL to practice for nationals.
Darned if you do, darned if you don't.
I guess there's less toes to step on if you do 10.5 and run it with 19t; figure if guys were going to get out of "stock" they'd have done it already. I personally like 13.5 as the intermediate, but it might be more widely accepted to just leave it 10.5/19t.
Regardless, it looks like by the end of this month I'll be able to slap in some BL to practice for nationals.
01-08-2008, 09:42 AM
#577
From what i saw at the novak race i would have to say
17.5 for stock
13.5 for 19t
then mod
from the times run at the novak the 10.5 motor is just 2 tenths slower when run by pros that is to close and to much of a jump to go from 17.5 stock to 10.5 when guys wanna move up. Thus keeping guys from wanting to take the jump to the fast motors even when they have the skill
and the times from 17 to 13 were about the same at 27t to 19t and then 13.5 to mod was about the same as a 19t to a mod
so if you go by the gap in lap times from brushed motors 17, then 13, then mod would be almost identical to how it is in brushed
17.5 for stock
13.5 for 19t
then mod
from the times run at the novak the 10.5 motor is just 2 tenths slower when run by pros that is to close and to much of a jump to go from 17.5 stock to 10.5 when guys wanna move up. Thus keeping guys from wanting to take the jump to the fast motors even when they have the skill
and the times from 17 to 13 were about the same at 27t to 19t and then 13.5 to mod was about the same as a 19t to a mod
so if you go by the gap in lap times from brushed motors 17, then 13, then mod would be almost identical to how it is in brushed
01-08-2008, 09:43 AM
#578
Going to mod does not mean you need to go to a 3.5 BL or a 7 Turn brushed motor. You cannot save people from themselves. That is not the sanctioning bodies job. I think going from stock to 19T and then to mild open mod is a great progression. If you run open mod and think you can handle more motor run it. As far as general "spec" racing stock to 19T I think has been a great graduation in speed. Mild mod is not that much faster then 19T. I have run 19T in open mod and done well with it. I ran 19T at a JBRL event with Cav, Pillars, Gardner, Hartson in the event. I was not far off the pace and made the main. I can guarentee you I would not have put in a faster time with more motor! That is just me though.
01-08-2008, 09:44 AM
#579
Tech Master
iTrader: (40)
With the 17.5, 10.5, to Mod progression I wonder if the jump from 17.5 to 10.5 is too big...just like Adrian and others have mentioned that in the 17.5, 13.5, to Mod progression the jump to Mod might be too big.
Darned if you do, darned if you don't.
I guess there's less toes to step on if you do 10.5 and run it with 19t; figure if guys were going to get out of "stock" they'd have done it already. I personally like 13.5 as the intermediate, but it might be more widely accepted to just leave it 10.5/19t.
Regardless, it looks like by the end of this month I'll be able to slap in some BL to practice for nationals.
Darned if you do, darned if you don't.
I guess there's less toes to step on if you do 10.5 and run it with 19t; figure if guys were going to get out of "stock" they'd have done it already. I personally like 13.5 as the intermediate, but it might be more widely accepted to just leave it 10.5/19t.
Regardless, it looks like by the end of this month I'll be able to slap in some BL to practice for nationals.
01-08-2008, 09:49 AM
#580
I've been told you guys are freaking that you have 13.5's that will go to waste...
Guys... the 19T class of which I want to change the name is for a stepping stone from Stock to Mod. You know this... for NATIONALS, which is what rule are for, to set precedence - we will have stock, mid class which needs rename and mod..
nothing says you HAVE to run a 10.5 in the mid class.... and nothing says clubs have to do this if their local program needs buidling and a few tweaks are in place...
ROAR rules are for nationals and trickle down to the club level is how we grow!!!
01-08-2008, 09:51 AM
#581
poor wording...
and my apologies.
and my apologies.
Last edited by Dawn Sanchez; 01-08-2008 at 04:47 PM.
01-08-2008, 09:58 AM
#582
I agree that 19T/10.5 should have a different name to promote it is a steping up class.
I do disagree with your last statement though. It is up to ROAR/IFMAR to determine the rules by which we race by. The will determine what manufactures produce products by. Right now we have a free for all. If the manufactures make it we will run it and it will be legal!
That does not sound right. There needs to be controls in place it it has been ROAR's responsiblity for those controls. Now it does not not get down to you have to run a AE car with plastic front arms, and steel turnbuckles, but rules are already in place that say the car can only be so wide, long, tall, has to weigh at least xxx.....
There have always been these rules for the electric brushed motors. We need the same for BL. I figured since we are shattering all the rules why not allow us to run 5 pole brushed motors. They will be more efficient and last longer and smoother, blah blah blah. They reason manufactures have not done it yet is the rules do not allow it. Would they like to, I have heard they would but not legal for racing. BL has had an open rules policy and we are where we are today.
I do disagree with your last statement though. It is up to ROAR/IFMAR to determine the rules by which we race by. The will determine what manufactures produce products by. Right now we have a free for all. If the manufactures make it we will run it and it will be legal!
That does not sound right. There needs to be controls in place it it has been ROAR's responsiblity for those controls. Now it does not not get down to you have to run a AE car with plastic front arms, and steel turnbuckles, but rules are already in place that say the car can only be so wide, long, tall, has to weigh at least xxx.....There have always been these rules for the electric brushed motors. We need the same for BL. I figured since we are shattering all the rules why not allow us to run 5 pole brushed motors. They will be more efficient and last longer and smoother, blah blah blah. They reason manufactures have not done it yet is the rules do not allow it. Would they like to, I have heard they would but not legal for racing. BL has had an open rules policy and we are where we are today.
01-08-2008, 10:01 AM
#583
Then, for you... don't. Go from 17.5 and run that 13.5 in your 19T class and then when your skill set allows, put in a 10.5 and do what you can do...
this is about choices for the racers guys.... its about making use of the products available and allowing everybody to think for themselves...
isn't that what ROAR should be doing? Listening to YOU and what you want to do? Is it our right to tell you what motor, speedo, body, chassis, tire, blah, blah... you have to run??
how does this sport grow without innovations?
this is about choices for the racers guys.... its about making use of the products available and allowing everybody to think for themselves...
isn't that what ROAR should be doing? Listening to YOU and what you want to do? Is it our right to tell you what motor, speedo, body, chassis, tire, blah, blah... you have to run??
how does this sport grow without innovations?
If roar desides to make a 17.5 and then the next class be a 10.5 class that is just 2 tenths difference from mod i believe would be a big mistake and would be seen at the first event it would be run.
Again after watching live in person at the novak and seeing that 10.5 was 2 tenths off mod why would you have 2 classes so close in speed? With not that many guys running mod as it is why have to classes with almost the same lap times.
If you want times to be spaced like they are with brushed it should be 17.5, 13.5, and then mod
Remember turnouts are down and making stuff faster isnt going to bring people back to racing. its slowing stuff down a little that will. Heck at dinner wensday night the winner of the 10.5 class said he thought they should get rid of mod and make 10.5 the top class . And most agreed with him
01-08-2008, 10:02 AM
#584
I agree that 19T/10.5 should have a different name to promote it is a steping up class.
I do disagree with your last statement though. It is up to ROAR/IFMAR to determine the rules by which we race by. The will determine what manufactures produce products by. Right now we have a free for all. If the manufactures make it we will run it and it will be legal! That does not sound right. There needs to be controls in place it it has been ROAR's responsiblity for those controls. Now it does not not get down to you have to run a AE car with plastic front arms, and steel turnbuckles, but rules are already in place that say the car can only be so wide, long, tall, has to weigh at least xxx.....
There have always been these rules for the electric brushed motors. We need the same for BL. I figured since we are shattering all the rules why not allow us to run 5 pole brushed motors. They will be more efficient and last longer and smoother, blah blah blah. They reason manufactures have not done it yet is the rules do not allow it. Would they like to, I have heard they would but not legal for racing. BL has had an open rules policy and we are where we are today.
I do disagree with your last statement though. It is up to ROAR/IFMAR to determine the rules by which we race by. The will determine what manufactures produce products by. Right now we have a free for all. If the manufactures make it we will run it and it will be legal!
That does not sound right. There needs to be controls in place it it has been ROAR's responsiblity for those controls. Now it does not not get down to you have to run a AE car with plastic front arms, and steel turnbuckles, but rules are already in place that say the car can only be so wide, long, tall, has to weigh at least xxx.....There have always been these rules for the electric brushed motors. We need the same for BL. I figured since we are shattering all the rules why not allow us to run 5 pole brushed motors. They will be more efficient and last longer and smoother, blah blah blah. They reason manufactures have not done it yet is the rules do not allow it. Would they like to, I have heard they would but not legal for racing. BL has had an open rules policy and we are where we are today.
we go with this as the membership has been asking for a year now and move forward. Changes will occur and we all need to realize change brings uncomfortable feelings.
There are reasons ROAR has taken so long to get this far.... too many to even begin talking about here... I say lets embrace this change and work together to make it grow.
Or, am I nuts?
