ROAR B/L motor Rules debate thread
01-02-2008, 09:25 PM
#106
Hmm... yes it is.. or maybe I am misunderstanding your comment.
Ok, so we are at a point that we 1. need to slow motors down to not only attract NEW racers but keep them so their skill level has time to grow and 2. stop trying to make equivalencies as thats never going to happen.
Years ago, you remember, when ROAR brought in brushless at the last minute to be combined with brushed at the carpet nats less than 3 weeks from the announcement... the uproar and the fury it caused... remember the boards that few months? Everybody hated Brushless was combined with brushed.. .it was new and it was scary. Was that a wrong decision? At the time it seemed to be right for the hobby and going back I wish I had gone the other direction to stay out of the mud slinging... but now... several years later... maybe it was the wisest decision made.....
Well, we are there again.... its time to make some changes and maybe good and maybe not... but we gotta find out and we need to ensure the electric racing hobby, (my personal first love in RC racing but don't tell the nitro heads that.. LOL) gets back to where it was when I first started this crazy hobby.
I think Lipo and Bl is part of the answer.. not all of it.
A point was made above.. we gotta realize there aren't enough racers out there now to sustain a hobby shop and track.. so we need to work on getting new. That is true. Very true.
I plan on discussing in our meeting the new BL rules the committee came up with.. (comittee of MFG's made the rules you guys will see in a few weeks) and I honestly do not feel we need to mess with stock one bit. We are going to include lipo, probably, in stock... but I seriously am having issues with BL in the stock classes. Make the BL's available in 19T and Mod... heck, 19T is a mod motor....
Ok, so we are at a point that we 1. need to slow motors down to not only attract NEW racers but keep them so their skill level has time to grow and 2. stop trying to make equivalencies as thats never going to happen.
Years ago, you remember, when ROAR brought in brushless at the last minute to be combined with brushed at the carpet nats less than 3 weeks from the announcement... the uproar and the fury it caused... remember the boards that few months? Everybody hated Brushless was combined with brushed.. .it was new and it was scary. Was that a wrong decision? At the time it seemed to be right for the hobby and going back I wish I had gone the other direction to stay out of the mud slinging... but now... several years later... maybe it was the wisest decision made.....
Well, we are there again.... its time to make some changes and maybe good and maybe not... but we gotta find out and we need to ensure the electric racing hobby, (my personal first love in RC racing but don't tell the nitro heads that.. LOL) gets back to where it was when I first started this crazy hobby.
I think Lipo and Bl is part of the answer.. not all of it.
A point was made above.. we gotta realize there aren't enough racers out there now to sustain a hobby shop and track.. so we need to work on getting new. That is true. Very true.
I plan on discussing in our meeting the new BL rules the committee came up with.. (comittee of MFG's made the rules you guys will see in a few weeks) and I honestly do not feel we need to mess with stock one bit. We are going to include lipo, probably, in stock... but I seriously am having issues with BL in the stock classes. Make the BL's available in 19T and Mod... heck, 19T is a mod motor....
01-02-2008, 09:27 PM
#107
Dawn,
What about the idea of at the Carpet Nat's of having a added class for BL 17.5 spec Novak's. Say you allow 40 racers max. in it. Keep the other classes the way you were already leaning. Let the race happen and get feedback from the participants and see how it goes. It seems many people are scared of what they don't understand, but once the see it work then it seems agreeable to them. I am not trying to insult anyone but this does seem to be what goes on in these forums.
From what I understand the Lipo experiment class at the off road race went of well. Having a test class at some of these races might be your best solution.
Steve
What about the idea of at the Carpet Nat's of having a added class for BL 17.5 spec Novak's. Say you allow 40 racers max. in it. Keep the other classes the way you were already leaning. Let the race happen and get feedback from the participants and see how it goes. It seems many people are scared of what they don't understand, but once the see it work then it seems agreeable to them. I am not trying to insult anyone but this does seem to be what goes on in these forums.
From what I understand the Lipo experiment class at the off road race went of well. Having a test class at some of these races might be your best solution.
Steve
the off road lipo/bl truck event went very well.. taught me a lesson... we can do bump ups in electric racing and fuel guys can have something to do when they run out of gas..
01-02-2008, 09:33 PM
#108
First, let me be clear.. if anybody is against ROAR killing a class its me....and I figured the entire day of reading my thoughts here you would understand that. 1/12th is a class that has its ups and downs. All I can do is look at the statistics from nationals in years past and watch its decline. If foams were the issue, I'm sure we would have heard from the class committee's by now to do something... if it were cost control measures... well, again, why haven't we heard this? 1/12th scale is going through the same growing pains as all electric racing. It got stagnent there for awhile while fuel racing took off.. now the time is electric and time to think OUTSIDE OF THE BOX....
Lipo will not be the death of 1/12th....... 1/12th will need to modify to stay current... just like everyone else.
Second, Lipo is being approved because its technology that racers want. Yes, a LARGE MAJORITY of hobbyists have stated they want to use this technology. ROAR will be a leader in this case and allow the technology in its events.
Another thing I figured you would have learned the last few weeks.. I am all about what is best for the hobby, the racer and ROAR's overall growth...
so, while you seem to be quite charming and have interesting ideas.. please, limit your judgements of me and what direction I would like to lead ROAR out of this healthy and extremely productive conversation.
I believe in ROAR and every single racer in ROAR.
Lipo will not be the death of 1/12th....... 1/12th will need to modify to stay current... just like everyone else.
Second, Lipo is being approved because its technology that racers want. Yes, a LARGE MAJORITY of hobbyists have stated they want to use this technology. ROAR will be a leader in this case and allow the technology in its events.
Another thing I figured you would have learned the last few weeks.. I am all about what is best for the hobby, the racer and ROAR's overall growth...
so, while you seem to be quite charming and have interesting ideas.. please, limit your judgements of me and what direction I would like to lead ROAR out of this healthy and extremely productive conversation.
I believe in ROAR and every single racer in ROAR.
01-02-2008, 09:34 PM
#109
I can see smaller clubs like ours here holding on a bit longer but I think what's going to force our hand will be the availability (or lack thereof) of sub-C cells in the not terribly distant future.
01-02-2008, 09:43 PM
#110
The only thing I'd add, Steve, would be to phase the "new" 1/12 class in. Start for at least 1 year with the new spec in Mod/Open and 19T speed equivalents (lord knows what the new classes would be called). That gives a "twilight" period of at least a year or two for "legacy" chassis, at least at the regional and national level.
I can see smaller clubs like ours here holding on a bit longer but I think what's going to force our hand will be the availability (or lack thereof) of sub-C cells in the not terribly distant future.
I can see smaller clubs like ours here holding on a bit longer but I think what's going to force our hand will be the availability (or lack thereof) of sub-C cells in the not terribly distant future.
I would like to add however to anyone who thinks all the classes should stay the same much longer is that who know how much longer the manufacturers will be making these products. Sub C cells seems to have hit a point where who knows what we can expect in the future.
I also believe that BR motors will not be developed as fast as before, I know if I was involved in a motor company I would be looking at BL as the future.
I do think though stock brushed motors at big races might survive for a while. I just don't see new versions coming out often.
Steve
01-02-2008, 09:47 PM
#111
The only thing I'd add, Steve, would be to phase the "new" 1/12 class in. Start for at least 1 year with the new spec in Mod/Open and 19T speed equivalents (lord knows what the new classes would be called). That gives a "twilight" period of at least a year or two for "legacy" chassis, at least at the regional and national level.
I can see smaller clubs like ours here holding on a bit longer but I think what's going to force our hand will be the availability (or lack thereof) of sub-C cells in the not terribly distant future.
I can see smaller clubs like ours here holding on a bit longer but I think what's going to force our hand will be the availability (or lack thereof) of sub-C cells in the not terribly distant future.
01-02-2008, 10:09 PM
#112
Ike,
It's not that I fear that they won't be available, its just that they seem like that they aren't meeting our needs anymore. If something fits our needs better then it becomes the norm. There are classes that will always be easier to use sub c cells like 1/12th scale. I think TC can convert fairly easily, design wise. The main thing the way I see it is in most cases allow a phase in period where the manufacturers don't have to worry about have 1,000 unsellable kits with sudden rule changes.
Dawn really seems easy to talk with and she just might be able to solidify things in the future.
Steve
It's not that I fear that they won't be available, its just that they seem like that they aren't meeting our needs anymore. If something fits our needs better then it becomes the norm. There are classes that will always be easier to use sub c cells like 1/12th scale. I think TC can convert fairly easily, design wise. The main thing the way I see it is in most cases allow a phase in period where the manufacturers don't have to worry about have 1,000 unsellable kits with sudden rule changes.
Dawn really seems easy to talk with and she just might be able to solidify things in the future.
Steve
01-02-2008, 10:13 PM
#113
just wondering what the basis is for your fears of having no sub-c cells available.
Battery technology has been moving so fast the last few years - who knows WHAT we'll be using in 2-3 years! But I'm sure it will be LIGHTER and MORE POWERFUL than what we have today...
01-02-2008, 10:18 PM
#114
Do you really think that's the case with sub-c cells and what leads you to believe that? In my short break from racing no less than 5 new cells hit the market. Just seems odd that something that seems to be more available than ever and has more options than ever is going to vanish in a short period of time. Not trying to refute what you're saying, just wondering what the basis is for your fears of having no sub-c cells available.
01-02-2008, 10:18 PM
#115
Not to mention I often find slower classes more enjoyable. The racing is closer, and I break less parts. Ultimately that is what this sport/hobby is all about...enjoyment. It's not fair to them to force them into a class they don't enjoy.
01-02-2008, 11:07 PM
#116
Interesting discussion we have going on in here...
First of all I'd like to quash any notion that Novak has some master plan to release slower motors in succession in a ploy to make everyone buy them one after another.
People tell us they want slower motors than what we have available... we do testing...we have third party testers test it... if everything seems good we release it.
Brushless technology has been advancing very quickly over the last few years and as mentioned before the 13.5 with a bonded rotor and a sintered rotor are two completely different beasts.
The 17.5 was a motor that we made available because some oval organizations specifically asked for a significantly slower motor that they could use... as word of this motor spread, demand for it grew and then it was put into full production/distribution.
As far as what motors are equal to others today it seems that most people tend to agree that the 10.5 and the 19T brushed motors seem fairly equal... they each have their own advantages in different aspects.
Then you get to the stock issue... 13.5 with a sintered rotor seems to be too fast when compared with the 27T brushed motors... so maybe a slower wind is in order...? enter talk of using the 17.5.
The 17.5 is definately slower...maybe too slow if you're looking for an equivalent? Maybe a 15.5 with a sintered rotor is a better match?
Is equality really what we need anyways?
Going to alot of the big races there are times when the 19T times are only a bit slower than the full blown modified times... there is definately some credibility in the idea that there should be a larger differential in speed among the classes.
IE: If "stock" class was so slow that the normal stock guys wouldn't enjoy it... it would compell them to step up to the "intermediate" class (somewhere between current stock and 19T speeds)... and then you'd have a full blown modified class above that for those who don't feel challenged enough by the "intermediate" class
First of all I'd like to quash any notion that Novak has some master plan to release slower motors in succession in a ploy to make everyone buy them one after another.
People tell us they want slower motors than what we have available... we do testing...we have third party testers test it... if everything seems good we release it.
Brushless technology has been advancing very quickly over the last few years and as mentioned before the 13.5 with a bonded rotor and a sintered rotor are two completely different beasts.
The 17.5 was a motor that we made available because some oval organizations specifically asked for a significantly slower motor that they could use... as word of this motor spread, demand for it grew and then it was put into full production/distribution.
As far as what motors are equal to others today it seems that most people tend to agree that the 10.5 and the 19T brushed motors seem fairly equal... they each have their own advantages in different aspects.
Then you get to the stock issue... 13.5 with a sintered rotor seems to be too fast when compared with the 27T brushed motors... so maybe a slower wind is in order...? enter talk of using the 17.5.
The 17.5 is definately slower...maybe too slow if you're looking for an equivalent? Maybe a 15.5 with a sintered rotor is a better match?
Is equality really what we need anyways?
Going to alot of the big races there are times when the 19T times are only a bit slower than the full blown modified times... there is definately some credibility in the idea that there should be a larger differential in speed among the classes.
IE: If "stock" class was so slow that the normal stock guys wouldn't enjoy it... it would compell them to step up to the "intermediate" class (somewhere between current stock and 19T speeds)... and then you'd have a full blown modified class above that for those who don't feel challenged enough by the "intermediate" class
My understanding of lithium polymer batteries, a/c bl motors and bl escs (essentially inverters) leads me to think it would be easier for battery manufacturers to make smaller lipo batteries for 12th scale, (i heard the 3200 fit already?? could be rumor), motor manufacturers to just change winds, and speedo manufacturers could consolidate some of their offerings if we could all just settle on 2 cell (7.4v). In the electronics segment of our market i'd bet the racers go through far more stuff than the hobbists.. (why else all this development)
It seems many want to slow down the stock guys.. I'm definitely not against it. If you put out a BL motor slightly slower than the current stock BR offering (for respective scale classes) the Laziness factor or the ease of use factor will wash out the BR desire shortly. The only guys who want to skim their comm each run are looking for a title, already have one, or think they need one because some marketing guy at their sponsor needs some title to promote a product to people who already read about it on the internet. And as you see at the Nats and various regional turn-outs IS NOT MUCH of the overall scene. Refer to Rule 1.1.1 and 1.1.3 of your ROAR Rulebook. Our growth would benefit from standardisation (oo euro spelling!) of battery equipment across the board, which leads to esc equipment, and if Steve confirms it, motors would be easier to swap out than either of those two.
and the biggest improvement this would bring.. more FUN.
01-02-2008, 11:33 PM
#117
mod and open mod
biggest thing is finding a happy medium in the classes except mod and open mod for the differences of brushed and brushless i think that all motors going to be run during a particular race need to be pre race dynoed and adjusted to attain close to the same results to get everything as close as you can
then marked for the race and the race winners cars checked right after any race for possible changes yes will be a lil more time consuming but more fair cause you do have the ass monkeys that like to cheat
dyno the motors and adjust accordingly rotors timing etc etc to get it all the same for all but mod class for instance running a bonded to decrease power and the timing is retard to decrease power the power characteristics will be close to the same if tuned that way and brushless gives us that option if we decide to use it and be fair if someone wants to cheat then find them and make him forfeit plain and simple thats the biggest thing to is the ability to run side by side and let skill be the end result not a mechanical issue as big as the basic drive systems of the cars
the answer to all of this is to have honest people that want to race and have fun i personally know what the brushlesses and lipos are capable of from the top to the bottom and something needs to be done for sure about the class ratings but honesty in setup is key each setup needs to be tuned differently to attain the same mechanical end result and place checks and balances in motion to keep everything fair
then marked for the race and the race winners cars checked right after any race for possible changes yes will be a lil more time consuming but more fair cause you do have the ass monkeys that like to cheat
dyno the motors and adjust accordingly rotors timing etc etc to get it all the same for all but mod class for instance running a bonded to decrease power and the timing is retard to decrease power the power characteristics will be close to the same if tuned that way and brushless gives us that option if we decide to use it and be fair if someone wants to cheat then find them and make him forfeit plain and simple thats the biggest thing to is the ability to run side by side and let skill be the end result not a mechanical issue as big as the basic drive systems of the cars
the answer to all of this is to have honest people that want to race and have fun i personally know what the brushlesses and lipos are capable of from the top to the bottom and something needs to be done for sure about the class ratings but honesty in setup is key each setup needs to be tuned differently to attain the same mechanical end result and place checks and balances in motion to keep everything fair
01-02-2008, 11:35 PM
#118
Everyone that races is looking for an edge, from tires/foams to chassis all the way to different bodies, why leave out the art of building "race" motors?
Isn't the motor the main part of racing?
In nitro, why are there all kinds of "builders" on the market, well, to find a stronger faster engine.
You want to kill the heart of racing and force us all to use the standard "box" motor?
Leave BL to mod, keep "racing" in all the other classes!
01-02-2008, 11:56 PM
#119
This may not be the proper time to chime in with this, but I have been working on a 12th scale project that uses Mamba motors, esc, a 1550mah 2C lipo and a $19 9 gram servo. Just to see if it would work. I chose an 8kv motor, which was a mistake. It's the fastest thing I have ever driven. Here's the kicker, it only weigh's 14.5 ounces! I plan to pick up a 4.6kv motor and retest. When I say this car is faster then todays mod cars, trust me, it is. The wear and tear on this car is far less then our 30 ounce equivelants. I don't have all my testing done, so there is no reason to get too excited yet. But if we are going to wipe the slate clean and draft up new rules for the 12th scale guys, this is really should be considered. I know there are going to be many that are going to say: "I can't use any of my old equipment". To a degree, that will be true. But if we are going to look at the health of a class, would lower cost with equal speed not be worth talking about? You will be able to put this car on the track for 2/3's the cost of todays car, plus you will not need all the peripheral additional equipment.
01-03-2008, 02:34 AM
#120
biggest thing is finding a happy medium in the classes except mod and open mod for the differences of brushed and brushless i think that all motors going to be run during a particular race need to be pre race dynoed and adjusted to attain close to the same results to get everything as close as you can
then marked for the race and the race winners cars checked right after any race for possible changes yes will be a lil more time consuming but more fair cause you do have the ass monkeys that like to cheat
dyno the motors and adjust accordingly rotors timing etc etc to get it all the same for all but mod class for instance running a bonded to decrease power and the timing is retard to decrease power the power characteristics will be close to the same if tuned that way and brushless gives us that option if we decide to use it and be fair if someone wants to cheat then find them and make him forfeit plain and simple thats the biggest thing to is the ability to run side by side and let skill be the end result not a mechanical issue as big as the basic drive systems of the cars
then marked for the race and the race winners cars checked right after any race for possible changes yes will be a lil more time consuming but more fair cause you do have the ass monkeys that like to cheat
dyno the motors and adjust accordingly rotors timing etc etc to get it all the same for all but mod class for instance running a bonded to decrease power and the timing is retard to decrease power the power characteristics will be close to the same if tuned that way and brushless gives us that option if we decide to use it and be fair if someone wants to cheat then find them and make him forfeit plain and simple thats the biggest thing to is the ability to run side by side and let skill be the end result not a mechanical issue as big as the basic drive systems of the cars
As cool as that would be...it could never be done. It would just take too much time in pre-race tech inspection then an additional inspection afterwards to make sure nothing has been adjusted to make it feasible.