ROAR B/L motor Rules debate thread
#616
If you move 10.5 up to mod, what is going to happen when the track is huge (100ft or more straight)? The guys with 7.5s, 5.5s, 4.5s, and 3.5s are going to be much faster than the 10.5 guys. On a smaller track, this may not be the case, but again not every track is the same. Consistency in classes across the nation is near impossible with brushless when you have some small tracks and some large tracks.
#617
Tech Elite
iTrader: (51)
If you move 10.5 up to mod, what is going to happen when the track is huge (100ft or more straight)? The guys with 7.5s, 5.5s, 4.5s, and 3.5s are going to be much faster than the 10.5 guys. On a smaller track, this may not be the case, but again not every track is the same. Consistency in classes across the nation is near impossible with brushless when you have some small tracks and some large tracks.
I think what Josh H posted is an elegant solution.
#618
Tech Fanatic
I agree with Panther420,
The reason the sport is not growing is at most tracks newbies are thrown to the wolves. They have to run with the 13.5 or 10.5 cars. If tracks would adopt the 17.5 class as a beginner class maybe more new racers would stay in the hobby. When they reach a certain level they should be moved up to the next class. The transfer to the next level would be much easier for them.
Dave Irrgang
The reason the sport is not growing is at most tracks newbies are thrown to the wolves. They have to run with the 13.5 or 10.5 cars. If tracks would adopt the 17.5 class as a beginner class maybe more new racers would stay in the hobby. When they reach a certain level they should be moved up to the next class. The transfer to the next level would be much easier for them.
Dave Irrgang
#619
I see alot of people who worry about the investment they have in 13.5 motors. If ROAR fails to keep a 13.5 class there are alot of BRL guys who run 13.5 motors. So there will be a market for your 13.5 motors if you want to get rid of them. I think 13.5 and 10.5 are the biggest classes in BRL.
Another thing to consider and I have mentioned it many times is choosing the right power source! Lithium batteries will replace NiMH batteries, it will just be a matter of time. The lithium batteries will only get batter in power output and capacity. The impovements in power will make any motor faster and this is why when designing racing classes the current and the future speeds must be considered
I feel it will be easier for ROAR to make four classes so that racers who travel can easily prepare for any of the four classes:
Novice (I suggest 17.5 or 21.5)
Intermediate ( I suggest 13.5)
Modified (I suggest 10.5)
Pro Modified (OPEN BL)
With out the 4th classes, a traveling racer may run into problems with tracks running odd rules such at 18.5, or 23.5 motors. In this respect, a racer would have to buy 5 or 6 different motors just to be able to race the tracks the next town over. With the desinated four classes a racer could expect that if a track does not race their favorite class they will most likely race the class above or below reducing the need for mulitple spare motors to just one motor spare motor.
I would rather have a pit box with one spare motor of a different winding than have to have 5 or 6 motors of different windings because of club tracks in my area not being on the same page for Rules which are influenced by ROAR just as much as they are influenced by the local racers.
My pit box already has 17.5, 13.5 and 10.5 motors in it just like many other racers
Another thing to consider and I have mentioned it many times is choosing the right power source! Lithium batteries will replace NiMH batteries, it will just be a matter of time. The lithium batteries will only get batter in power output and capacity. The impovements in power will make any motor faster and this is why when designing racing classes the current and the future speeds must be considered
I feel it will be easier for ROAR to make four classes so that racers who travel can easily prepare for any of the four classes:
Novice (I suggest 17.5 or 21.5)
Intermediate ( I suggest 13.5)
Modified (I suggest 10.5)
Pro Modified (OPEN BL)
With out the 4th classes, a traveling racer may run into problems with tracks running odd rules such at 18.5, or 23.5 motors. In this respect, a racer would have to buy 5 or 6 different motors just to be able to race the tracks the next town over. With the desinated four classes a racer could expect that if a track does not race their favorite class they will most likely race the class above or below reducing the need for mulitple spare motors to just one motor spare motor.
I would rather have a pit box with one spare motor of a different winding than have to have 5 or 6 motors of different windings because of club tracks in my area not being on the same page for Rules which are influenced by ROAR just as much as they are influenced by the local racers.
My pit box already has 17.5, 13.5 and 10.5 motors in it just like many other racers
#620
I wasn't going to put this here, but since it was brought up;
Quote from MaxAmps,
MaxAmps have released the ultimate upgrade for any vehicle that takes a 6 cell saddle pack of Sub C NiMH cells, with the release of a range of LiPo saddle packs. Sold in 6000mAh and 4000mAh, these 7.4V packs are hard cased and simply drop into your car with no modification necessary. Super lightweight, they offer twice the capacity as normal NiMH for the same weight and can maintain a maximum discharge of 90Amps.
SOOOO, now tell me why the weight breaks need to be adjusted.
Quote from MaxAmps,
MaxAmps have released the ultimate upgrade for any vehicle that takes a 6 cell saddle pack of Sub C NiMH cells, with the release of a range of LiPo saddle packs. Sold in 6000mAh and 4000mAh, these 7.4V packs are hard cased and simply drop into your car with no modification necessary. Super lightweight, they offer twice the capacity as normal NiMH for the same weight and can maintain a maximum discharge of 90Amps.
SOOOO, now tell me why the weight breaks need to be adjusted.
#621
Tech Elite
iTrader: (8)
I hear a lot of that as well. Mod is hard, we finally have more power than 99% of us can use effectively. This is why a great deal of us can turn faster laps with a 27t brushed motor than a full on mod.
Also, at club races the mod guys usually complain about the slower guys in the class. It's the guy that's 10 laps off the pace that still has to race with you, even though your lapping him every 45 seconds. We gripe that nobody's in mod, and gripe when their in mod.
People advocating 5 cell should spend a few months running it. I ran it, mixed results, but didn't care for it. Was harder to make time, and slower, weird scenario.
Mod at the big races is always less populated with racers. Firstly, mod is THEE spec class people are always griping we should have. Guess what, you can basically have all the power in the world now, the playing field is level, what's a persons excuse for not racing in it? No team parts needed, no killer batterys, and an outta the box car can win a national championship. So where is everybody? Problem is, only the high end factory pro's are good enough to REALLY hang onto those cars, and use it effectively. Also, "Joe Average racer" is usually pretty worried that he's going to accidentally break or seriously hack some pro at a big event. "say man, aren't you the dude that hacked Toso' at the birds and broke his car?...". To which you reply, "Uh... no.. that was... uh... Barry Baker..."
Also, at club races the mod guys usually complain about the slower guys in the class. It's the guy that's 10 laps off the pace that still has to race with you, even though your lapping him every 45 seconds. We gripe that nobody's in mod, and gripe when their in mod.
People advocating 5 cell should spend a few months running it. I ran it, mixed results, but didn't care for it. Was harder to make time, and slower, weird scenario.
Mod at the big races is always less populated with racers. Firstly, mod is THEE spec class people are always griping we should have. Guess what, you can basically have all the power in the world now, the playing field is level, what's a persons excuse for not racing in it? No team parts needed, no killer batterys, and an outta the box car can win a national championship. So where is everybody? Problem is, only the high end factory pro's are good enough to REALLY hang onto those cars, and use it effectively. Also, "Joe Average racer" is usually pretty worried that he's going to accidentally break or seriously hack some pro at a big event. "say man, aren't you the dude that hacked Toso' at the birds and broke his car?...". To which you reply, "Uh... no.. that was... uh... Barry Baker..."
#622
We dont have a mod class either except when everyone gets together and decides its about time they need to replace a few parts and want to run it on a particular weekend. That is why I think both 13.5 and 10.5 would fit well in a "19Turn" class. It would probably also make that class one of the bigger and most competitive ones since most people have either a 13.5, 10.5 or both if they have brushless at all.
#623
Tech Elite
iTrader: (2)
I hear a lot of that as well. Mod is hard, we finally have more power than 99% of us can use effectively. This is why a great deal of us can turn faster laps with a 27t brushed motor than a full on mod.
Also, at club races the mod guys usually complain about the slower guys in the class. It's the guy that's 10 laps off the pace that still has to race with you, even though your lapping him every 45 seconds. We gripe that nobody's in mod, and gripe when their in mod.
People advocating 5 cell should spend a few months running it. I ran it, mixed results, but didn't care for it. Was harder to make time, and slower, weird scenario.
Mod at the big races is always less populated with racers. Firstly, mod is THEE spec class people are always griping we should have. Guess what, you can basically have all the power in the world now, the playing field is level, what's a persons excuse for not racing in it? No team parts needed, no killer batterys, and an outta the box car can win a national championship. So where is everybody? Problem is, only the high end factory pro's are good enough to REALLY hang onto those cars, and use it effectively. Also, "Joe Average racer" is usually pretty worried that he's going to accidentally break or seriously hack some pro at a big event. "say man, aren't you the dude that hacked Toso' at the birds and broke his car?...". To which you reply, "Uh... no.. that was... uh... Barry Baker..."
Also, at club races the mod guys usually complain about the slower guys in the class. It's the guy that's 10 laps off the pace that still has to race with you, even though your lapping him every 45 seconds. We gripe that nobody's in mod, and gripe when their in mod.
People advocating 5 cell should spend a few months running it. I ran it, mixed results, but didn't care for it. Was harder to make time, and slower, weird scenario.
Mod at the big races is always less populated with racers. Firstly, mod is THEE spec class people are always griping we should have. Guess what, you can basically have all the power in the world now, the playing field is level, what's a persons excuse for not racing in it? No team parts needed, no killer batterys, and an outta the box car can win a national championship. So where is everybody? Problem is, only the high end factory pro's are good enough to REALLY hang onto those cars, and use it effectively. Also, "Joe Average racer" is usually pretty worried that he's going to accidentally break or seriously hack some pro at a big event. "say man, aren't you the dude that hacked Toso' at the birds and broke his car?...". To which you reply, "Uh... no.. that was... uh... Barry Baker..."
So true on people being concious of being in the way when the factory guys are in the same heat......
Mod is going to make a comeback imo with brushless making it easy to jump into compared to running a 6x1 brushed motor.... lol
#624
Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer
.. "say man, aren't you the dude that hacked Toso' at the birds and broke his car?..."
#625
Tech Regular
iTrader: (1)
If brushed and 17.5 BL are run together here is what I see happening to new racers:
First a new guy shows up and at the urging of the locals gets a 17.5 BL system for his XYZ car.
Several months pass and as the new guy gets used to the car setup and the motor he realizes that his car is slower in the straights than the "pros". The new guy wants his car to be the same speed to be competitive so he buys the motor that the "pros" are running, problem is that motor happens to be 27T brushed. So the new guy now has to learn to tune his stock motor to be as fast as the "pros" motor and how to maintain it at the same time.
New guy ends up spending the next months huddled over a comm lathe and he loses focus over why he started racing. New guy sells r/c stuff on ebay and spends his time playing with his Xbox.
OR:
Local track defies ROAR(won't be the first time) and continues to run 13.5 BL with 27T brushed. New guy learns to setup a car, and while he is waiting for his LiPo to charge chats with the other racers.
Now which option sounds more FUN?
NO to 17.5 with 27T
First a new guy shows up and at the urging of the locals gets a 17.5 BL system for his XYZ car.
Several months pass and as the new guy gets used to the car setup and the motor he realizes that his car is slower in the straights than the "pros". The new guy wants his car to be the same speed to be competitive so he buys the motor that the "pros" are running, problem is that motor happens to be 27T brushed. So the new guy now has to learn to tune his stock motor to be as fast as the "pros" motor and how to maintain it at the same time.
New guy ends up spending the next months huddled over a comm lathe and he loses focus over why he started racing. New guy sells r/c stuff on ebay and spends his time playing with his Xbox.
OR:
Local track defies ROAR(won't be the first time) and continues to run 13.5 BL with 27T brushed. New guy learns to setup a car, and while he is waiting for his LiPo to charge chats with the other racers.
Now which option sounds more FUN?
NO to 17.5 with 27T
#626
Tech Elite
iTrader: (2)
If brushed and 17.5 BL are run together here is what I see happening to new racers:
First a new guy shows up and at the urging of the locals gets a 17.5 BL system for his XYZ car.
Several months pass and as the new guy gets used to the car setup and the motor he realizes that his car is slower in the straights than the "pros". The new guy wants his car to be the same speed to be competitive so he buys the motor that the "pros" are running, problem is that motor happens to be 27T brushed. So the new guy now has to learn to tune his stock motor to be as fast as the "pros" motor and how to maintain it at the same time.
New guy ends up spending the next months huddled over a comm lathe and he loses focus over why he started racing. New guy sells r/c stuff on ebay and spends his time playing with his Xbox.
OR:
Local track defies ROAR(won't be the first time) and continues to run 13.5 BL with 27T brushed. New guy learns to setup a car, and while he is waiting for his LiPo to charge chats with the other racers.
Now which option sounds more FUN?
NO to 17.5 with 27T
First a new guy shows up and at the urging of the locals gets a 17.5 BL system for his XYZ car.
Several months pass and as the new guy gets used to the car setup and the motor he realizes that his car is slower in the straights than the "pros". The new guy wants his car to be the same speed to be competitive so he buys the motor that the "pros" are running, problem is that motor happens to be 27T brushed. So the new guy now has to learn to tune his stock motor to be as fast as the "pros" motor and how to maintain it at the same time.
New guy ends up spending the next months huddled over a comm lathe and he loses focus over why he started racing. New guy sells r/c stuff on ebay and spends his time playing with his Xbox.
OR:
Local track defies ROAR(won't be the first time) and continues to run 13.5 BL with 27T brushed. New guy learns to setup a car, and while he is waiting for his LiPo to charge chats with the other racers.
Now which option sounds more FUN?
NO to 17.5 with 27T
Are you sure that a 17.5 will be slower than a tuned 27 turn brushed?
Just asking because 13.5 is noticably faster that a 27 turn brushed motor.
#627
Tech Elite
iTrader: (51)
There is obviously no solution that will please everybody. And saying to run what your area supports regardless of the rules is just a scapegoat to lay down some rules without feeling bad about upsetting some people. But it needs to be consistent from track to track. So lay down the rules, and require Roar affiliated clubs to run them. In time most other tracks will conform as well, there will still be outlaw tracks I have no doubts, but there are things to consider to make less of them. A dedicated 13.5 class would help. But if that means creating more classes, then at what expense would it be. I don't care what motor is chosen, so long as the majority of tracks abide by it. I will do what I always do, and buy what I need to race. But with this track running this and that track running that, it will only mean less traveling for me and others. The best way around it is to legalize what we are already running. And what we are running is ultimately the fault of Roar to begin with.
#629
Tech Champion
iTrader: (22)
I'd like to make a few points here because i was actually at the Novak race
*The difference in 13.5 to 10.5 is that you actually need to let off in most corners with 10.5. 10.5 is closer to mod in my opinion than 13.5 is to stock. 19t is almost as strapped as stock is. I have experienced the same thing racing 1/12 cars. Also, it was about .02 per lap mod to 10.5, 10.5 to 13.5.
Not to mention the B main of mod was turning 10.5 a/b main times.
*The reason to look at the results of the Novak is that there were both the best drivers in the country, and some of the most wonderfully average drivers in the country. Looking beyond the A main to compare lap times can shed quite a bit of light on the decision making process.
*There should be an intermediate class. If that needs to be a different motor for carpet and asphalt, so be it.
*17.5, or maybe something even slower, should be a ROAR class regardless of it's inclusion at the nationals. It should be there so manufacturers will pay attention to it, and tracks will have a standard to work with. Any car, on or off road, is pretty complex these days. We need a starting point which is easy to handle, and standard across the country.
*Brushless is probably one of the best things to happen to racing in a while. I was not a big fan early on, but I have seen the light. We just need to stay vigilant so things don't go out of control.
*The difference in 13.5 to 10.5 is that you actually need to let off in most corners with 10.5. 10.5 is closer to mod in my opinion than 13.5 is to stock. 19t is almost as strapped as stock is. I have experienced the same thing racing 1/12 cars. Also, it was about .02 per lap mod to 10.5, 10.5 to 13.5.
Not to mention the B main of mod was turning 10.5 a/b main times.
*The reason to look at the results of the Novak is that there were both the best drivers in the country, and some of the most wonderfully average drivers in the country. Looking beyond the A main to compare lap times can shed quite a bit of light on the decision making process.
*There should be an intermediate class. If that needs to be a different motor for carpet and asphalt, so be it.
*17.5, or maybe something even slower, should be a ROAR class regardless of it's inclusion at the nationals. It should be there so manufacturers will pay attention to it, and tracks will have a standard to work with. Any car, on or off road, is pretty complex these days. We need a starting point which is easy to handle, and standard across the country.
*Brushless is probably one of the best things to happen to racing in a while. I was not a big fan early on, but I have seen the light. We just need to stay vigilant so things don't go out of control.
#630
Tech Regular
iTrader: (1)
On both a carpet track and an asphalt track?
On carpet it might look faster easier because of the torque difference out of the corners.
In a straight up race down the straight they are very equal.
Brushed won't go away if it can give a competitive edge over 17.5 BL