Trinity... New home of the IB 4600
12-18-2007, 10:47 AM
#91
This is not to be taken as a dig on Trinity, but as a topic of conversation for us racers to debate...and perhaps Jim could provide his input.
So...can someone please explain why ROAR should even consider approving the use of 4600 NiMH cells. If the general theme has been certain cells are tempermential...why allow them? The capacility is more than we can ever use anyway?
ROAR wants to promote a fair and balanced level of competitive racing for the masses...(and help stop the slow death of membership) than the excom needs to say enough is enough. Go back to what worked and what was safe & reliable.
Last I remember, the 3800's were the safest and most reliable compromise between voltage and run time, using current NiMH technology. I'm sure they are still available.
Just because IB or EP produces a new cell does not mean we need to jump on the band wagon and approve them? Where is the testing? If all ROAR is doing is approvig the cell because it fits nicely into a specific dimension...who cares...has reliability been tested.
There is nothing more frustrating for the average racer to have to waste tons of $$$ purchasing new packs because the ones you purchased a month ago are flat / not taking a full charge. Based on the feedback I get directly from local who continue to turn away from racing the general tone is, where getting sick the increased cost to be competitive. (ie: batteries!!!)
what really pathetic is the $600 I spend each winter season on batteries for a short live carpet season are not even good enough after a few months to use in a nitro starter box. (I've gone back to 2400 stick packs)
Why doesn't ROAR / IFMAR / EFRA just say enough is enough...this is all were allowing. If you're going to continue to use NiMH, just use 3800's.
Its really sad...the fact is NiMH is becoming old technology...you're not going to see a "one-to-one" car manufacturer using NiMh technology in the cars they sell. As consumers you would not stand for it. Electric / hybrids are going to use Lipo technolgy...shoudl we do the same in RC...or work with a NiMH base that is reliable.
Your thought would be appreciated as this is something that I feel has lead to a significant decrease in electric racing. Unfortunately, I'm comparing today to the glory days of RC when 1700 SCRC's were life savers...especially compared to the SC's....
So...can someone please explain why ROAR should even consider approving the use of 4600 NiMH cells. If the general theme has been certain cells are tempermential...why allow them? The capacility is more than we can ever use anyway?
ROAR wants to promote a fair and balanced level of competitive racing for the masses...(and help stop the slow death of membership) than the excom needs to say enough is enough. Go back to what worked and what was safe & reliable.
Last I remember, the 3800's were the safest and most reliable compromise between voltage and run time, using current NiMH technology. I'm sure they are still available.
Just because IB or EP produces a new cell does not mean we need to jump on the band wagon and approve them? Where is the testing? If all ROAR is doing is approvig the cell because it fits nicely into a specific dimension...who cares...has reliability been tested.
There is nothing more frustrating for the average racer to have to waste tons of $$$ purchasing new packs because the ones you purchased a month ago are flat / not taking a full charge. Based on the feedback I get directly from local who continue to turn away from racing the general tone is, where getting sick the increased cost to be competitive. (ie: batteries!!!)
what really pathetic is the $600 I spend each winter season on batteries for a short live carpet season are not even good enough after a few months to use in a nitro starter box. (I've gone back to 2400 stick packs)
Why doesn't ROAR / IFMAR / EFRA just say enough is enough...this is all were allowing. If you're going to continue to use NiMH, just use 3800's.
Its really sad...the fact is NiMH is becoming old technology...you're not going to see a "one-to-one" car manufacturer using NiMh technology in the cars they sell. As consumers you would not stand for it. Electric / hybrids are going to use Lipo technolgy...shoudl we do the same in RC...or work with a NiMH base that is reliable.
Your thought would be appreciated as this is something that I feel has lead to a significant decrease in electric racing. Unfortunately, I'm comparing today to the glory days of RC when 1700 SCRC's were life savers...especially compared to the SC's....
12-18-2007, 11:57 AM
#92
Tech Adept
Hello Mr. Dieter.
With the advancement of the brushless systems I see more drivers working on their cars rather then Motors and Batteries. Do you think that the cars will advance further in design now that more can be focused on the handling of the cars than on Motors and Battries?
On another thought. Did you ever find my 1/12? hehehehee
Good luck at Trinity.
Seeya at the Birds.
Kenny"Scarecrow"Holmes
With the advancement of the brushless systems I see more drivers working on their cars rather then Motors and Batteries. Do you think that the cars will advance further in design now that more can be focused on the handling of the cars than on Motors and Battries?
On another thought. Did you ever find my 1/12? hehehehee
Good luck at Trinity.
Seeya at the Birds.
Kenny"Scarecrow"Holmes
Last edited by scarecrow; 12-18-2007 at 12:12 PM.
12-18-2007, 12:04 PM
#93
Tech Regular
Carl,
Toyota/Lexus, Ford/Mercury, Honda/Acura, and all current GM hybrids use the safest longest lasting and most cost effective chemistry available today. They're all NiMh. The A123, Exxon, and other Lithium based cells are on the way but not good enough for the federal requirements yet.
From what I remember the federal requirement is something like 8 years or 100,000 miles. The LiPo cells that are in use today (even in RC) are good for a few years at best even if you take care of them. Internal corrosion can't be avoided in the current cells.
Toyota/Lexus, Ford/Mercury, Honda/Acura, and all current GM hybrids use the safest longest lasting and most cost effective chemistry available today. They're all NiMh. The A123, Exxon, and other Lithium based cells are on the way but not good enough for the federal requirements yet.
From what I remember the federal requirement is something like 8 years or 100,000 miles. The LiPo cells that are in use today (even in RC) are good for a few years at best even if you take care of them. Internal corrosion can't be avoided in the current cells.
12-18-2007, 12:09 PM
#94
Carl
First point. You're right about capacity, but the main reason is safety. Mistakes were made, everyone knows it, they seem to have fixed it with the new generations, 30,000 cells went through the matchers at trinity, nothing blew....Point two, Battery companies dont like to go backwards and make older cells, most of them get replaced by the new series. They make lower capacity cells, but they become an inconsistent cell that is good enough for power tools or sport packs....I totally feel your pain on the rest, it happens on a larger scale with companies running race teams, but it's the same issue.
Will the new generation cells save it ??? I guess we can only hope. The rest, you are correct, My old Nicads ran forever, then they were phased out of racing by the powers that make rules. I believe Lipo is coming, but they have their own set of issues, hopefully soon to be fixed.
First point. You're right about capacity, but the main reason is safety. Mistakes were made, everyone knows it, they seem to have fixed it with the new generations, 30,000 cells went through the matchers at trinity, nothing blew....Point two, Battery companies dont like to go backwards and make older cells, most of them get replaced by the new series. They make lower capacity cells, but they become an inconsistent cell that is good enough for power tools or sport packs....I totally feel your pain on the rest, it happens on a larger scale with companies running race teams, but it's the same issue.
Will the new generation cells save it ??? I guess we can only hope. The rest, you are correct, My old Nicads ran forever, then they were phased out of racing by the powers that make rules. I believe Lipo is coming, but they have their own set of issues, hopefully soon to be fixed.
12-18-2007, 12:12 PM
#95
Carl and unregistered..They do use nimh in the full size cars, one trick for them is gaining longevity of the cell by never fully charging it....75% is all they charge them up to.
12-18-2007, 12:35 PM
#96
I don't think that limiting capacity will save anything. I've never had a 3800 that stopped at 3800 or a 4200 that didn't take 4500 after charging. I think that if we limit the capacity, you'll just see 3800 shrink wrap on 4600 batteries. 
As far as the Trinity bashing. I haven't dealt with them enough to make a good or bad opinion of them. What I do see is Jim taking alot of slaps in the face and standing tall. I wish you the best of luck in turning the racing world around.
As far as the Trinity bashing. I haven't dealt with them enough to make a good or bad opinion of them. What I do see is Jim taking alot of slaps in the face and standing tall. I wish you the best of luck in turning the racing world around.
12-18-2007, 12:42 PM
#97
Tech Master
I don't think that limiting capacity will save anything. I've never had a 3800 that stopped at 3800 or a 4200 that didn't take 4500 after charging. I think that if we limit the capacity, you'll just see 3800 shrink wrap on 4600 batteries.
As far as the Trinity bashing. I haven't dealt with them enough to make a good or bad opinion of them. What I do see is Jim taking alot of slaps in the face and standing tall. I wish you the best of luck in turning the racing world around.
As far as the Trinity bashing. I haven't dealt with them enough to make a good or bad opinion of them. What I do see is Jim taking alot of slaps in the face and standing tall. I wish you the best of luck in turning the racing world around.
12-18-2007, 12:44 PM
#98
Thanks... Bashing trinity has been trendy for a long time...lol, most have trouble coming up with a reason why. But..I'll keep trying to make things right, improve the numbers of racers, and try not to offend too many doing it. Scarecrow...your 1/12 scale may have been sold to pay for Josh's kids' diapers...lol
12-18-2007, 12:51 PM
#99
Dear Chad,
Since you were on the topic of officespace...I have a question
What would you say you do at trinity?
Your best friend... -Steve
Since you were on the topic of officespace...I have a question
What would you say you do at trinity?
Your best friend... -Steve
12-18-2007, 12:59 PM
#100
Tech Master
2) that was at 8am this morning before work
3) I want my 2 pair of red springs back I generously gave you when asked
Im here to help promote our new product with Jim.
12-18-2007, 01:08 PM
#101
...haha
12-18-2007, 01:13 PM
#102
Tech Regular
jim you have PM
12-18-2007, 01:49 PM
#103
Tech Adept
OK,so here's my 2 cents....i have ran everything and IB's Kick A**...way more power and runtime...especially with brushless...no matter how high you gear your car they still seem to have the voltage to pull it...that's if your speedo doesn't thermal...lol....L8
12-18-2007, 02:12 PM
#104
I think it's great that Trinity is putting someone in the ring that actually cares about racing. I believe it will help them. I remeber back in the day when I had no problem forking over $50-60 for a Trinity "Pushed" matched pack with 300ish seconds of run time at 20 amps...
I agree that Trinity has done a lot for the hobby by pushing the limits and advancing technology. I do not agree with their anti brushless campaign, but that's not what this is about.
I think it could be a good thing for them to be selling both IB and EP cells, simply for the shear number of product that they sell. This should help increase reliability IMO.
I kinda wish Trinity would re-release the "Pushed" name on their cells. I remember walking around the pits, and those that had them were always the ones to beat on the track.
I agree that Trinity has done a lot for the hobby by pushing the limits and advancing technology. I do not agree with their anti brushless campaign, but that's not what this is about.
I think it could be a good thing for them to be selling both IB and EP cells, simply for the shear number of product that they sell. This should help increase reliability IMO.
I kinda wish Trinity would re-release the "Pushed" name on their cells. I remember walking around the pits, and those that had them were always the ones to beat on the track.
12-18-2007, 02:59 PM
#105
Hi Dan
You are right on the "pushed " name, a sorts dug it too. I got them to revive the x-tech thing, so who knows. there were some behind the scenes things on the brushless myth deal. Most of those issues were pretty accurate, and still are even though everyone worked around it. At the time when the brushless rules were written by Bob Novak, nobody really had one that worked. Bob and others wanted the new rules, and run them with brushed imediately. I (and others)wanted everyone to play (meaning Hacker, the early Orion, etc..)and let them run their own class. Competition makes people get their equipment right. Several years later, I still think the overall development would have been further along with more players. I spoke with oscar, and a few other noteables who secretly agree now. But like they said, too late now. Bob went through alot of struggles early to get his rules through, but it appears that things have become stable around his system. I can tell people that we ran motors that they can buy, with a speedo that is available, and not feel guilty doing it.
You are right on the "pushed " name, a sorts dug it too. I got them to revive the x-tech thing, so who knows. there were some behind the scenes things on the brushless myth deal. Most of those issues were pretty accurate, and still are even though everyone worked around it. At the time when the brushless rules were written by Bob Novak, nobody really had one that worked. Bob and others wanted the new rules, and run them with brushed imediately. I (and others)wanted everyone to play (meaning Hacker, the early Orion, etc..)and let them run their own class. Competition makes people get their equipment right. Several years later, I still think the overall development would have been further along with more players. I spoke with oscar, and a few other noteables who secretly agree now. But like they said, too late now. Bob went through alot of struggles early to get his rules through, but it appears that things have become stable around his system. I can tell people that we ran motors that they can buy, with a speedo that is available, and not feel guilty doing it.
