why are we still running sub-c cells??
12-23-2007, 02:43 PM
#211
Brian Bodine (Slapmaster bearings) has prototyped a 12th scale car running 18th scale brushless gear and lipos, and it was a rocket. If anything, it was too fast. He was using the most powerful Mamba motor and thought it should definitely be pulled back to a milder power plant. I saw it with my own eyes, it worked. There's no question that 12th scale, lipo, and brushless are completely workable together. It just requires some engineering to truly optimize it. Which, by the way, is exciting: new thinking, fresh designs, renewed energy.
I don't think 12th scale is going to die. 12th scale cars are still the best approach for racing on tight tracks, especially non-permanent indoor carpet layouts. And they're easier to work on than 18th scale cars and all those tiny parts.
I don't think 12th scale is going to die. 12th scale cars are still the best approach for racing on tight tracks, especially non-permanent indoor carpet layouts. And they're easier to work on than 18th scale cars and all those tiny parts.
12-23-2007, 03:01 PM
#212
Tech Regular
Personally, I would like to see the 12th class go to 2 cell LiPo because it would not require changing a bunch of stuff on our cars. The 2 cell 21.5 BL class is one of the smartest things that's happened in oval racing in a long time and the roadcourse guys should look at what's working already.
Changing to a smaller motor will require a lot of changes and equipment. You'll need a new speedo and motor of course. But, there's also the new pod plate(s) and possibly new pinions for the motor. It all adds up.
Changing to a smaller motor will require a lot of changes and equipment. You'll need a new speedo and motor of course. But, there's also the new pod plate(s) and possibly new pinions for the motor. It all adds up.
12-23-2007, 04:20 PM
#213
I was talking with Brian about the pod change and think that making a simple adapter for the smaller motor would be the best way to go. This would require very little cost conversion and the lighter chassis would make tire wear go away, saving more $$ in the long run. And still fast as Heck.
12-23-2007, 05:29 PM
#214
The technical information on the ZR1 that was released yesterday has already spawned the inevitable “pushrod versus overhead-cam” debate, with preconceived notions continually perpetuated about the perceived technical sophistication of a cam-in-block design. Our Powertrain team’s testing shows the LS9 makes about 300 horsepower by only 3,300 rpm and a significant 320 lb.-ft. of torque at only 1,000 rpm. The engine’s rev range is competitive with many overhead-cam engines, but we’ve also got usable torque at every notch on the tachometer. It’s a also a compact, relatively low-mass package, which helps the ZR1 achieve a better power-to-weight ratio than the Porsche 911 GT2, the Ferrari 599 and the Lamborghini LP640.
http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/archives...09_corvet.html
12-23-2007, 09:01 PM
#215
Uh... pushrods aren't all that bad actually, just because its old doesn't mean its bad: Read on how the new Corvette ZR1 with pushrod's will be able to suck the doors off Porche's, Ferrari's, and Lambo's.
The technical information on the ZR1 that was released yesterday has already spawned the inevitable “pushrod versus overhead-cam” debate, with preconceived notions continually perpetuated about the perceived technical sophistication of a cam-in-block design. Our Powertrain team’s testing shows the LS9 makes about 300 horsepower by only 3,300 rpm and a significant 320 lb.-ft. of torque at only 1,000 rpm. The engine’s rev range is competitive with many overhead-cam engines, but we’ve also got usable torque at every notch on the tachometer. It’s a also a compact, relatively low-mass package, which helps the ZR1 achieve a better power-to-weight ratio than the Porsche 911 GT2, the Ferrari 599 and the Lamborghini LP640.
http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/archives...09_corvet.html
The technical information on the ZR1 that was released yesterday has already spawned the inevitable “pushrod versus overhead-cam” debate, with preconceived notions continually perpetuated about the perceived technical sophistication of a cam-in-block design. Our Powertrain team’s testing shows the LS9 makes about 300 horsepower by only 3,300 rpm and a significant 320 lb.-ft. of torque at only 1,000 rpm. The engine’s rev range is competitive with many overhead-cam engines, but we’ve also got usable torque at every notch on the tachometer. It’s a also a compact, relatively low-mass package, which helps the ZR1 achieve a better power-to-weight ratio than the Porsche 911 GT2, the Ferrari 599 and the Lamborghini LP640.
http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/archives...09_corvet.html
I was refering to the big high tech push to go lipo and/or BL does NOT mean that the "old" technology is no longer pliable. Nascar is a perfect example of the advancement of "old" technology by managing to crank the pushrods to over 9500 RPM and 700+HP with a carb and NO engine computers.
His advatar is a nascar logo, but he is against "old" tech, and we all must change over.
12-23-2007, 11:59 PM
#216
Why do some people insist on redesigning the wheel all the time. Maybe someday we can have 14 types of 1/12th scale classes to run.
Why make them even lighter still. I watched Josh Cyrul run one of his 1/12 th's at our local track several years ago and it was so fast it wanted to go airborn back then..batteries are even better now.
In my opinion what we need are batteries to be reliable again and not to keep getting more powerfull 3 times a year with new releases.
Why make them even lighter still. I watched Josh Cyrul run one of his 1/12 th's at our local track several years ago and it was so fast it wanted to go airborn back then..batteries are even better now.
In my opinion what we need are batteries to be reliable again and not to keep getting more powerfull 3 times a year with new releases.
...WAY off subject (nothing NEW here on RCTech) but how about 1/12th scale using the smaller B/L motors .
I know some of the AIRPLANES use a pretty small size motor, why stay with the HUGE/HEAVY 540 size B/L motor in a 1/12th scale car.
Can you imagine how LIGHT you can get a 1/12th scale car w/ LIPO and something closer to a 380 size motor? Plus you could use maybe the MICRO B/L ESC's...for even MORE wight savings...ADAMGE is right-on with this concept...
ADAMGE - what don't you like about the 21.5 motor? It's no different than any other motor...it has a purpose and if it's not the speed for you - don't run it. (Just as I don't/won't run a 3.5)
Some people like pushing the envelope on one end of the spectrum of speed...where others like to go a totally different direction...doesn't make EITHER SIDE Wrong...just different~
I know some of the AIRPLANES use a pretty small size motor, why stay with the HUGE/HEAVY 540 size B/L motor in a 1/12th scale car.
Can you imagine how LIGHT you can get a 1/12th scale car w/ LIPO and something closer to a 380 size motor? Plus you could use maybe the MICRO B/L ESC's...for even MORE wight savings...ADAMGE is right-on with this concept...
ADAMGE - what don't you like about the 21.5 motor? It's no different than any other motor...it has a purpose and if it's not the speed for you - don't run it. (Just as I don't/won't run a 3.5)
Some people like pushing the envelope on one end of the spectrum of speed...where others like to go a totally different direction...doesn't make EITHER SIDE Wrong...just different~
12-24-2007, 12:41 AM
#217
As far as "the only difference...BS.. How about, runtime, performance, battery life, motor life, lower maintenance, more free time, more money for other mods, eliminate middle man ie motor tuners and battery matchers, more compact, lighter weight.....I can go on and on. Closing your eyes wont stop the earth from turning.
12-24-2007, 08:04 AM
#218
.....I can go on and on. Closing your eyes wont stop the earth from turning.
...I agree you'll see guys who can find some performance advantages by being able to fine tune ESC's (Hmmmm haven't you been able to do that in the past...NOVAK had re-setable ProFiles for a LONG LONG Time, TEKIN had Torque Limiting, etc...but a LOT of people NEVER used those features)
The really cool thing is - I Don't Have To SPEND HOURS building the PERFECT motors anymore...just to stay consistant...matter of fact, I can pretty much just LEAVE the motor in the Car - AND - leave the LIPO battery in the car too...and just keep tinkering/tweaking WITH the car itself....and while I'm NO 'Factory Team' HotDog, or anything even CLOSE to a Pro Driver...it sure is nice having all the extra time I DON'T have to spend maintaining a lot of this stuff anymore...so maybe I can finally LEARN TO DRIVE!!
12-24-2007, 08:44 AM
#219
Oh great, lets create another new class to eliminate an existing class.
That means new chassis, new batteries, new speedo, new motor, oh and a new charger and balancer.
That's a good way to get the hobby to grow, where ya gunna get enough new people to replace all those that finally say screw it to 1/12th, not to mention sedan where all the NEW stuff will have to replace all your good but old stuff.
Your going to drive more people away then you will be able to replace, me included.
That means new chassis, new batteries, new speedo, new motor, oh and a new charger and balancer.
That's a good way to get the hobby to grow, where ya gunna get enough new people to replace all those that finally say screw it to 1/12th, not to mention sedan where all the NEW stuff will have to replace all your good but old stuff.
Your going to drive more people away then you will be able to replace, me included.
12-24-2007, 09:10 AM
#220
Oh great, lets create another new class to eliminate an existing class.
That means new chassis, new batteries, new speedo, new motor, oh and a new charger and balancer.
That's a good way to get the hobby to grow, where ya gunna get enough new people to replace all those that finally say screw it to 1/12th, not to mention sedan where all the NEW stuff will have to replace all your good but old stuff.
Your going to drive more people away then you will be able to replace, me included.
That means new chassis, new batteries, new speedo, new motor, oh and a new charger and balancer.
That's a good way to get the hobby to grow, where ya gunna get enough new people to replace all those that finally say screw it to 1/12th, not to mention sedan where all the NEW stuff will have to replace all your good but old stuff.
Your going to drive more people away then you will be able to replace, me included.
Nice while it lasted but those Nk-Ml are not on anyones wish list for Christmas...
so..
Just get your Li-Po and get over it ...
12-24-2007, 10:12 AM
#221
Of course people know that "a small percentage" of people will tweak, cheat or whatever. Who cares, that will always be the case as long as humans roam the earth.
As far as "the only difference...BS.. How about, runtime, performance, battery life, motor life, lower maintenance, more free time, more money for other mods, eliminate middle man ie motor tuners and battery matchers, more compact, lighter weight.....I can go on and on. Closing your eyes wont stop the earth from turning.
As far as "the only difference...BS.. How about, runtime, performance, battery life, motor life, lower maintenance, more free time, more money for other mods, eliminate middle man ie motor tuners and battery matchers, more compact, lighter weight.....I can go on and on. Closing your eyes wont stop the earth from turning.
Also are you so niave to believe a manufacturer is going to produce a motor that you buy once and it lasts forever so that you never have to go back to them for anything? No maintenance parts, no upgrades, no tweaks needed? Very bad business model. If that were true a brushless motor would be a lot more than $80.
Your eyes are the one that are closed if you are counting out the ingenuity of people to sniff out a business opportunity, competition among racers to get an edge, and companies willing to furnish that edge.
Right now you are right in saying that all you need to run Lipo/brushless is a charger and a can of oil, but that WILL change.
12-24-2007, 10:28 AM
#222
Where do you race? You must race with people that after the race say "I am sorry for going so fast, I'll slow down so we can keep a level playing field". Racers will find an edge over the next guy by any means neccessary within the rules given. There are no rule governing brushless motor specs so for the time being there is no such thing as "cheating". But if you had read the post and gotten the proper context, I was stating that there will be ways/equipement invented by people and companies to give the racer an advantage over the guy next to him and to push the envelope. As these new technologies emerge racers will take advantage of them. Your Lipo/brushless pit box will get bigger.
Also are you so niave to believe a manufacturer is going to produce a motor that you buy once and it lasts forever so that you never have to go back to them for anything? No maintenance parts, no upgrades, no tweaks needed? Very bad business model. If that were true a brushless motor would be a lot more than $80.
Your eyes are the one that are closed if you are counting out the ingenuity of people to sniff out a business opportunity, competition among racers to get an edge, and companies willing to furnish that edge.
Right now you are right in saying that all you need to run Lipo/brushless is a charger and a can of oil, but that WILL change.
Also are you so niave to believe a manufacturer is going to produce a motor that you buy once and it lasts forever so that you never have to go back to them for anything? No maintenance parts, no upgrades, no tweaks needed? Very bad business model. If that were true a brushless motor would be a lot more than $80.
Your eyes are the one that are closed if you are counting out the ingenuity of people to sniff out a business opportunity, competition among racers to get an edge, and companies willing to furnish that edge.
Right now you are right in saying that all you need to run Lipo/brushless is a charger and a can of oil, but that WILL change.
Thats where the brushed stock motors are needed, you can't just move from a silver can to a 19t class without breaking a lot of parts and a huge amount of frustration.
12-24-2007, 10:30 AM
#223
It's just like you to shut out an entire segment of the hobby just so you can have your way. Smooth move. We need more people in the hobby just like you so that we can shut the whole thing down. 12th scale is the purest form of RC racing there is and you don't mind dumping it all in one fell swoop.
12-24-2007, 10:34 AM
#224
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