brushless death
12-11-2007, 09:29 AM
#1
brushless death
hey all:The brushless talk might be beaten to death,but here are a few more things.Why have brushless motors become so common place in mod. racing,but other than oval not so in stock and 19t as of yet?Is it because brushed is better for stock and 19t or because compnaies realise that most of the bigger rc races use handouts for stock and 19t so they figure they'll concentrate on the mod motors.Finally how far off do you all think we are from having brushless replace brushed as the norm for stock and 19t handout motors at most big races?Thanks for the info 
Last edited by b-man777; 12-12-2007 at 07:31 AM.
12-11-2007, 09:37 AM
#2
hey all:The brushless talk might be beaten to death,but here are a few more things.Why have brushless motors become so common place in mod. racing,but other than oval not so in stock and 19t as of yet? Is it because brushed is better for stock and 19t or because compnaies realise that most of the bigger rc races use handouts for stock and 19t so they figure they'll concentrate on the mod motors.
The Novak Race is the start of the brushless reign. I give it two years and brushed motors will be history.
12-11-2007, 09:48 AM
#4
I think a large part of it is that people who have been into this gig for a long time have lots of experience with brushed motors, and dont want to give up their advantage in classes where power is very evenly matched like in stock. It would mean the end of motor gurus. Good for the noobs (like me lol) and bad for the experienced, I think thats what it comes down to.
12-11-2007, 10:26 AM
#5
For some it all comes down to initial investment of the equipment. There is a cost difference that must be considered. Plus, some people still like to tinker with their motors. If you add up each side of the debate in the end it will become a wash in $$$ because everything adds up eventually.
12-11-2007, 10:28 AM
#6
brushless
There are several reasons that brushless hasn't taken over yet:
1) too many racers have too much money invested in brushed motors and support products (speed controllers, lathes, dyno's, brushes, springs, can zappers, etc.)
2) too many tuners make money from brushed motors
3) spending money on brushed motors ensures a speed advantage that goes away with brushless
4) since most top drivers are sponsored, they run what their sponsors give them, and since roar relies on the manufacturers for their support, race sponsors, etc, roar also does what the sponsors tell them (to a point)
5) their is no brushless equivalent to any brushed motor. Even if their peak power output is similar, a brushless motor will pull fewer amps from the battery, won't heat up as much, and will be much more consistent throughout the run
6) the inefficiency in brushed motors helps justify higher voltage nimh batteries which are continuously released, helping the matchers make money
Like everything else, it all comes down to money and competition.
1) too many racers have too much money invested in brushed motors and support products (speed controllers, lathes, dyno's, brushes, springs, can zappers, etc.)
2) too many tuners make money from brushed motors
3) spending money on brushed motors ensures a speed advantage that goes away with brushless
4) since most top drivers are sponsored, they run what their sponsors give them, and since roar relies on the manufacturers for their support, race sponsors, etc, roar also does what the sponsors tell them (to a point)
5) their is no brushless equivalent to any brushed motor. Even if their peak power output is similar, a brushless motor will pull fewer amps from the battery, won't heat up as much, and will be much more consistent throughout the run
6) the inefficiency in brushed motors helps justify higher voltage nimh batteries which are continuously released, helping the matchers make money
Like everything else, it all comes down to money and competition.
12-11-2007, 10:35 AM
#7
same $
Kraig, no offense, but you are 100% wrong in saying that brushed and brushless end up being the same cost. A high end brushless system is $250 (esc + pro motor), a high end brushed system is $180 (esc + tuned motor), that $70 difference will let you run the brushed motor for 3 months (assume change brushes every 4 runs, so each race day, race 3 times a month = $45 + another brushed motor after 3 months.) I am not even talking about the comm lathe, brush serator, TIME, etc)
That brushless motor will last for years. In fact, the only problem with brushless motors is that new ones keep coming out trying to be the same as brushed motors, which is impossible.
The excuse that brushless is too expensive for the newbie is frankly bs handed out by the tuners to stay in business. The best thing to happen in r/c in over a decade is when brushless fully replaces brushed motors and the cost of r/c drops because of it.
That brushless motor will last for years. In fact, the only problem with brushless motors is that new ones keep coming out trying to be the same as brushed motors, which is impossible.
The excuse that brushless is too expensive for the newbie is frankly bs handed out by the tuners to stay in business. The best thing to happen in r/c in over a decade is when brushless fully replaces brushed motors and the cost of r/c drops because of it.
12-11-2007, 10:51 AM
#8
The argument always includes buying a NEW brushed motor. Why? When does a brushed motor die? When the comm peels... Do I really need to spend $45+ on a new motor? No, just buy a new armature ~$14. A good motor is in the endbell period.
Sunday our local regionals I built motors every round. If anyone were to walk up to me and say "Hey, every time I see you, your building a motor, can you do mine?" I'd gladly tell them to bring it over.
Sunday our local regionals I built motors every round. If anyone were to walk up to me and say "Hey, every time I see you, your building a motor, can you do mine?" I'd gladly tell them to bring it over.
12-11-2007, 10:58 AM
#9
100% agree with that ...
when I ask the clubs I raced at they comes up with that rubbish story brushless is expensive blah blah...
I think that new revolution scares some people who makes money on rc market...
when I ask the clubs I raced at they comes up with that rubbish story brushless is expensive blah blah...
I think that new revolution scares some people who makes money on rc market...
12-11-2007, 11:02 AM
#10
[QUOTE=billjacobs;3962857]
That brushless motor will last for years. In fact, the only problem with brushless motors is that new ones keep coming out trying to be the same as brushed motors, which is impossible.
I wish you would explain that to the 2 dead brushless motors I have that are less than 8 months old.
That brushless motor will last for years. In fact, the only problem with brushless motors is that new ones keep coming out trying to be the same as brushed motors, which is impossible.
I wish you would explain that to the 2 dead brushless motors I have that are less than 8 months old.
12-11-2007, 11:11 AM
#11
brushed and brushless run together in all class' at our track , close to 50 50 split , neither domanates , they all have there advanatages and disadvanatages , its justs so much easier for club racing , ray
12-11-2007, 11:11 AM
#12
dead brushless motors
How did the brushless motors die? Did the rotor debond? Were they lrp motors, novak? Did your motors have the sintered rotors?
Obviously as time passes, the brushless motors will become more durable (sintered, larger bearings, etc.)
One of the problems in r/c is that no one leaves things alone. If you are supposed to gear the motor in a certain range and watch the temperature, everyone tries to gear it within 1 degree of the critical temperature looking for an edge. If you are supposed to charge at 5 amps, people charge at 8 amps, etc. Because brushless motors are fairly consistent in speed between the same model motors, and because they maintain the same performance over time, maybe the key to brushless and even competition is to have restricted gearing?
Saying that brushless is not reliable is the same as saying that nimh are not reliable because of the IB cells. More details are needed.
Obviously as time passes, the brushless motors will become more durable (sintered, larger bearings, etc.)
One of the problems in r/c is that no one leaves things alone. If you are supposed to gear the motor in a certain range and watch the temperature, everyone tries to gear it within 1 degree of the critical temperature looking for an edge. If you are supposed to charge at 5 amps, people charge at 8 amps, etc. Because brushless motors are fairly consistent in speed between the same model motors, and because they maintain the same performance over time, maybe the key to brushless and even competition is to have restricted gearing?
Saying that brushless is not reliable is the same as saying that nimh are not reliable because of the IB cells. More details are needed.
12-11-2007, 11:11 AM
#13
Stock class is supposed to be a low cost, spec (specific) class, if you were to allow a different motor than a 27 turn, 24 degree Roar legal stock motor (that has a price cap), then it wouldn't be a spec class.
Making the change to brushless at your local track is very simple, convince all the stock class racers at your track to go buy a 13.5 brushless system, then the track would have no other option then to let the brushless be the new stock motor.
Making the change to brushless at your local track is very simple, convince all the stock class racers at your track to go buy a 13.5 brushless system, then the track would have no other option then to let the brushless be the new stock motor.
12-11-2007, 11:17 AM
#14
brushed and brushless in the same class
I think that having brushed and brushless in the same class is the best solution for now. As brushless takes over, it will no longer be an issue.
But saying that brushed and brushless each have advantages/disadvantages isn't accurate. The accurate thing it to say is that "equivalent" brushed and brushless motors have advantages/disadvantages. The only reason the brushless motor has disadvantages is because you are trying to make it equal to a brushed which is not possible.
As for replacing only the $15 armature in a brushed motor, (since most run stock,) what about worn bushings, weak magnets, etc. How many competitive racers run the same stock motor more than 40 full 5 minute runs?
But saying that brushed and brushless each have advantages/disadvantages isn't accurate. The accurate thing it to say is that "equivalent" brushed and brushless motors have advantages/disadvantages. The only reason the brushless motor has disadvantages is because you are trying to make it equal to a brushed which is not possible.
As for replacing only the $15 armature in a brushed motor, (since most run stock,) what about worn bushings, weak magnets, etc. How many competitive racers run the same stock motor more than 40 full 5 minute runs?
12-11-2007, 11:21 AM
#15
scrubb
Stock hasn't been a spec class for many years, and it hasn't been low cost for longer than that. If you want stock to be a spec class, stop allowing $400 sedans with another $200 in hopups and $300+ in electronics to race in the low cost spec class. Spec racing is not about putting a "slower" motor into a $1000 car.
The closest thing to spec racing are the tamiya plastic cars (tt01, mini.) Of course the rpm differences in silver can motors and the $150 in hopups to gain an edge has all but killed spec racing at the club level. Handout motors and batteries with tt01 box stock cars is spec racing.
The track where I race already lets brushed and brushless 13.5's run in the same class, so no convincing necessary.
For the newbie adult entering r/c racing, brushless is a godsend. For the established racers who don't want to switch, brushless sucks.
The closest thing to spec racing are the tamiya plastic cars (tt01, mini.) Of course the rpm differences in silver can motors and the $150 in hopups to gain an edge has all but killed spec racing at the club level. Handout motors and batteries with tt01 box stock cars is spec racing.
The track where I race already lets brushed and brushless 13.5's run in the same class, so no convincing necessary.
For the newbie adult entering r/c racing, brushless is a godsend. For the established racers who don't want to switch, brushless sucks.