Who saw rctvlive about R.O.A.R. ?
12-05-2007, 07:53 PM
#166
Some people are very stubburn Bill...it doesnt matter if you explain things to them over and over, they're stuck in the old nimh and brushed motors, becasuse they cant stand the fact theat now with Brushless and Lipo the field is much more fair and even for all, and much easier to maintain and set up the systems and all the tricks these old timers had to learn to get the brushed motors and nimh packs to work great and which gave them an edge over others is now gone...they're suddenly not the "geniuses" they used to be, and have to learn and be on the same level as the average racer...this is course if not the majority...but some are definitely trying to keep things under the old outdated laws for cars 6-7 yrs ago...
However, until Nimh is all gone, you can't just give Lipos a 5 ounce advantage or whatever you want. If this is the future, the Lipos will very soon be faster than Nimh and no one will want to run them. That would be the time to adjust the weight limit. Not to mention, without battery side ballast, your car will handle like crap unless you have a JRXS R or a Team Magic car.
12-05-2007, 08:20 PM
#167
This is true. Hudy already mentioned that if lipos become "legal" and the "norm" they will design a car around lipo batteries. I am sure some other companies will do the same.
12-05-2007, 08:26 PM
#168
If you have a car that weighs 53oz with nimh batteries (tc5 or cyclone), here is the breakdown of the car's weight:
1) battery 15oz
2) motor 7oz
3) tires 4.5oz
4) body 4.5oz
5) servo 2oz
6) speed controller + receiver + wire 2.5-3oz
That is 35.5oz, leaving you 17.5oz for the car. Where would you make the car lighter, and by how much. Do you think you could remove 5oz of weight from the rollor (about 30% of its weight)? Everything is already graphite and milled aluminum, where would you take the weight from?
1) battery 15oz
2) motor 7oz
3) tires 4.5oz
4) body 4.5oz
5) servo 2oz
6) speed controller + receiver + wire 2.5-3oz
That is 35.5oz, leaving you 17.5oz for the car. Where would you make the car lighter, and by how much. Do you think you could remove 5oz of weight from the rollor (about 30% of its weight)? Everything is already graphite and milled aluminum, where would you take the weight from?
Because YOU have lipos and want to run them does not mean ROAR should go out and obsolete everybody's Nimh batteries tomorrow by dropping the minimum weight. Also the cars will be faster, which is like, the opposite of what we need. And then you're throwing any plans for BL spec motors out of whack, since they were probably based on the current weight rules.
This is just not a thing you can change real fast. Don't you remember what happened when they allowed BL motors immediately before the 2005 carpet nats?
12-05-2007, 09:20 PM
#169
The argument about lipo in a 6 cell shape is invalid -> orion 3200. If you mean the weight, it's silly to add weight to a battery that is only good in making min weight for racing.
Checked that out, last time I looked all the competitive TC's run saddle pack(*sorry should have been side by side) configuration and not stick pack, so close but no cigar.
Now as far as weight reduction goes, How much would you like to spend? Before I go into a breakdown of how, i'd like to know what products you are making reference too with your weight readings, as if we are not both speaking apples, it doesn't make much sense to debate this.
For starters though.
1. Batteries, no labels, one layer of shrink wrap, smaller bars, no connectors. Then again, whose to say the NiMh people can't come up with a lighter cell as well.
2. Motor, change the endbell from aluminum to composite. Possibly air core magnets or split rotor motors in modified, ceramic shaft.
3. Tires, carbon fiber wheels.
4. Body, thin pull, one run bodies, possibly died so no paint is used.
5. Servo, no ears, glued to chassis, gut half the gears or at least the teeth.
6. Radio gear, look how small the Spectrum rxr is, smaller speedo, go the the next smaller wire size. (This is where I'm not sure what type of equipment you make reference to)
Now followed by that, I'm pretty sure lighter bearings could be found. Trim every other cog off the belts, drill the heck out of the spur gear, lighten the center shaft, titanium out drives and half shafts, and of course change out the screws, probably up to about 3500 bucks, for one good run, but thats the price of racing, but seriously, its the price that would kill it for most of us, but it can be done.
Checked that out, last time I looked all the competitive TC's run saddle pack(*sorry should have been side by side) configuration and not stick pack, so close but no cigar.
Now as far as weight reduction goes, How much would you like to spend? Before I go into a breakdown of how, i'd like to know what products you are making reference too with your weight readings, as if we are not both speaking apples, it doesn't make much sense to debate this.
For starters though.
1. Batteries, no labels, one layer of shrink wrap, smaller bars, no connectors. Then again, whose to say the NiMh people can't come up with a lighter cell as well.
2. Motor, change the endbell from aluminum to composite. Possibly air core magnets or split rotor motors in modified, ceramic shaft.
3. Tires, carbon fiber wheels.
4. Body, thin pull, one run bodies, possibly died so no paint is used.
5. Servo, no ears, glued to chassis, gut half the gears or at least the teeth.
6. Radio gear, look how small the Spectrum rxr is, smaller speedo, go the the next smaller wire size. (This is where I'm not sure what type of equipment you make reference to)
Now followed by that, I'm pretty sure lighter bearings could be found. Trim every other cog off the belts, drill the heck out of the spur gear, lighten the center shaft, titanium out drives and half shafts, and of course change out the screws, probably up to about 3500 bucks, for one good run, but thats the price of racing, but seriously, its the price that would kill it for most of us, but it can be done.
Last edited by Johnny Wishbone; 12-06-2007 at 07:06 AM.
12-05-2007, 10:41 PM
#172
12-06-2007, 04:48 AM
#173
Roar should just consult the car manufacturers to work out what minimum weights should be. Roar should ignor the the internet engineers.
12-06-2007, 06:01 AM
#174
a better idea
Lets just go to rubber band power, no motor, no speed controller, no wires. We will save at least 8 ounces.
Graphite wheels? One run bodies? Lighter bearings? Have you looked at what shrink wrap weighs? Even if you implemented all of your changes, you would save maybe 5 ounces but have a very brittle $3,000 car that wasn't race worthy.
My weights come from a scale and regular electronics (qc2, spektrum receiver, 14ga wire, futaba 9451 servo, etc)
I just balanced an xray T2 (with aluminum knuckles and rear hubs, motor guard, center one-way, all else stock) with all micro electronics (qc2, spektrum micro, 9550 servo, 14ga wire, stock motor) and the orion 3200 and had to add 3.75 ounces to the battery side. The total car weight ready to run was 47.5 ounces. Brushless would add about 2 ounces for the esc and the motor, make it about 50 ounces (you would need to move electronics around). This is still about 4 ounces less than the 53.8 min roar weight.
If you made the roar min 50-51oz, lipo and nimh would be the same speed (you would have a hard time getting a nimh car down to 50oz, and would have to add a couple of ounces to a lipo car.)
Graphite wheels? One run bodies? Lighter bearings? Have you looked at what shrink wrap weighs? Even if you implemented all of your changes, you would save maybe 5 ounces but have a very brittle $3,000 car that wasn't race worthy.
My weights come from a scale and regular electronics (qc2, spektrum receiver, 14ga wire, futaba 9451 servo, etc)
I just balanced an xray T2 (with aluminum knuckles and rear hubs, motor guard, center one-way, all else stock) with all micro electronics (qc2, spektrum micro, 9550 servo, 14ga wire, stock motor) and the orion 3200 and had to add 3.75 ounces to the battery side. The total car weight ready to run was 47.5 ounces. Brushless would add about 2 ounces for the esc and the motor, make it about 50 ounces (you would need to move electronics around). This is still about 4 ounces less than the 53.8 min roar weight.
If you made the roar min 50-51oz, lipo and nimh would be the same speed (you would have a hard time getting a nimh car down to 50oz, and would have to add a couple of ounces to a lipo car.)
12-06-2007, 06:26 AM
#175
12-06-2007, 06:59 AM
#176
I guess another thing to consider if going to Lipo is that we wouldn't require as thick as a chassis as what we run right now, since the majority of the payload (battery weight) is no longer there.
I'm pretty sure the 5 was what you wanted me to wittle down on the car, done, but pretty useless as you say.
When I said saddle pack I meant as in 6 in a row, still not the configureation of the Orion 3200 stick pack, but why could this not be altered to conform to the other configuration. Like I said before, if the case conformed to the conventual configuration, I'm pretty sure the whole argument of Lipo/Nimh would be mute, and the car makers wouldn't even have to change what they produce now. Of course they will though to take advantage of the lost weight.
Bill I really don't think we are in disagreement on any of this, just different views.
I'm pretty sure the 5 was what you wanted me to wittle down on the car, done, but pretty useless as you say.
When I said saddle pack I meant as in 6 in a row, still not the configureation of the Orion 3200 stick pack, but why could this not be altered to conform to the other configuration. Like I said before, if the case conformed to the conventual configuration, I'm pretty sure the whole argument of Lipo/Nimh would be mute, and the car makers wouldn't even have to change what they produce now. Of course they will though to take advantage of the lost weight.
Bill I really don't think we are in disagreement on any of this, just different views.
12-06-2007, 08:50 AM
#177
Initially, yea, though with the Saehan LiPo I don't notice enough difference between them to make it worth the trouble. I'm using them now because the car handles better than it did with the LiPo tray. I could experiment with other ways of weighting things, but I'm going to be using a new car soon, so I don't want to mess with it too much until that's here. I'm definitely reminded, though, why NiMH is such a hassle. It surprises me that people would fight so bitterly to KEEP that situation. It sucks.
12-06-2007, 08:58 AM
#178
12-06-2007, 09:29 AM
#179
How much longer should we wait for Roar to make a announcement
in regard`s to this issue Dawn ?
in regard`s to this issue Dawn ?
12-06-2007, 09:31 AM
#180
who roar should listen to
The danger in getting the r/c suppliers and manufacturers to come with rules is that they will do what's in their best interest, not the racers. This has been shown time and time again. Also r/c suppliers and manufacturers are the ones that fight the hardest to maintain the status quo and not change things because change affects their bottom line. As examples:
1) bushings in stock motors for the last 15 years
2) ever more fragile sub-c cells that last less and less runs
3) how about continuously increasing the cost of each new generation of kit that comes out ($200->$300->$400->?) and increasing the cost of parts on a regular basis ($5 per arm is now normal)
4) how about working to undermine new technologies (bl,LIPO) every chance they get
5) etc
But we're just internet engineers, so what could we possibly contribute!
1) bushings in stock motors for the last 15 years
2) ever more fragile sub-c cells that last less and less runs
3) how about continuously increasing the cost of each new generation of kit that comes out ($200->$300->$400->?) and increasing the cost of parts on a regular basis ($5 per arm is now normal)
4) how about working to undermine new technologies (bl,LIPO) every chance they get
5) etc
But we're just internet engineers, so what could we possibly contribute!