ROAR Stock TC Guideline Suggestion
10-03-2007, 12:49 PM
#61
obviously, stock class is slower. the 27T motor allows a new driver to learn how to drive. A novice driver does not really have the experience to control with any degree of skill a 19T motor. I am a novice driver and i have spoken with several novices and those who would like to get more involved in the sport. >>>>the most daunting obstacle is that we do not have the skill needed to race against the more experienced racers. this fact alone keeps people from coming out and getting involved. <<<<<
i recently participated in my first event (which used ROAR guidelines) and I could not believe the high degree of skill level and competitiveness in the stock class. >>>>>>It is not much fun and very disheartening to race against people who are much faster, and being constantly told to move over and let them by, or endure the wrath of the experienced driver. thats not racing nor is it fun or motivating, atleast not for a beginner racer. why would i want to race in a stock class filled with "pro" racers, which should be the next step up for a novice. I don't, and many others feel the same.<<<<<<<
what is the solution? i don't think it is in chassis type, but rather in promoting a class the less skilled driver can race in and develop their skills. i can understand the reluctance of the experienced driver not wanting to move on to a faster class.>>>>>> it is fun to win, but it is also no fun to not stand a chance of being competitive in a class that should be for beginners.<<<<<< perhaps making it mandatory for the experienced driver to move on or developing a pro stock class would be the solution and make the sport more inviting for the new racer.
10-03-2007, 12:53 PM
#62
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limiting the type of chassis for stock class is an interesting idea. the problem though seems to be more then just chassis type in stock class. when confronted with a problem the best route is to be ask those who are "living" the problem and that is the novices, as that is often where the solution should come from.
for novices the problem is not the chassis type it is driving skill. it matters little what type of chassis they run. they will afford what they can afford when they can afford it. it is their capabilities as a driver that will sort it all out on the track.
obviously, stock class is slower. the 27T motor allows a new driver to learn how to drive. A novice driver does not really have the experience to control with any degree of skill a 19T motor. I am a novice driver and i have spoken with several novices and those who would like to get more involved in the sport. the most daunting obstacle is that we do not have the skill needed to race against the more experienced racers. this fact alone keeps people from coming out and getting involved.
i recently participated in my first event (which used ROAR guidelines) and I could not believe the high degree of skill level and competitiveness in the stock class. It is not much fun and very disheartening to race against people who are much faster, and being constantly told to move over and let them by, or endure the wrath of the experienced driver. thats not racing nor is it fun or motivating, atleast not for a beginner racer. why would i want to race in a stock class filled with "pro" racers, which should be the next step up for a novice. I don't, and many others feel the same.
what is the solution? i don't think it is in chassis type, but rather in promoting a class the less skilled driver can race in and develop their skills. i can understand the reluctance of the experienced driver not wanting to move on to a faster class. it is fun to win, but it is also no fun to not stand a chance of being competitive in a class that should be for beginners. perhaps making it mandatory for the experienced driver to move on or developing a pro stock class would be the solution and make the sport more inviting for the new racer.
for novices the problem is not the chassis type it is driving skill. it matters little what type of chassis they run. they will afford what they can afford when they can afford it. it is their capabilities as a driver that will sort it all out on the track.
obviously, stock class is slower. the 27T motor allows a new driver to learn how to drive. A novice driver does not really have the experience to control with any degree of skill a 19T motor. I am a novice driver and i have spoken with several novices and those who would like to get more involved in the sport. the most daunting obstacle is that we do not have the skill needed to race against the more experienced racers. this fact alone keeps people from coming out and getting involved.
i recently participated in my first event (which used ROAR guidelines) and I could not believe the high degree of skill level and competitiveness in the stock class. It is not much fun and very disheartening to race against people who are much faster, and being constantly told to move over and let them by, or endure the wrath of the experienced driver. thats not racing nor is it fun or motivating, atleast not for a beginner racer. why would i want to race in a stock class filled with "pro" racers, which should be the next step up for a novice. I don't, and many others feel the same.
what is the solution? i don't think it is in chassis type, but rather in promoting a class the less skilled driver can race in and develop their skills. i can understand the reluctance of the experienced driver not wanting to move on to a faster class. it is fun to win, but it is also no fun to not stand a chance of being competitive in a class that should be for beginners. perhaps making it mandatory for the experienced driver to move on or developing a pro stock class would be the solution and make the sport more inviting for the new racer.
10-03-2007, 02:19 PM
#63
"perhaps making it mandatory for the experienced driver to move on or developing a pro stock class would be the solution and make the sport more inviting for the new racer."
This is exactly what I am talking about!!!!!!!!
This is exactly what I am talking about!!!!!!!!
10-03-2007, 02:41 PM
#64
Tech Regular
The two main reasons that there are so many "fast" guys in stock are the speeds, and factorys that want to advertise wins because stock is so challenging.
If you slow the class down so that it's not a challenge for an expert driver it will take the prestige out of stock. Slowing the class will also make a place for new people and the "hobby" enthusiast. Without the speed, the top stock guys will move up to the next faster class (19 turn).
Typically, stock guys totally wig out if you mention slowing stock but providing a bigger gap between the classes is the only way to promote moving up within the classes. 19 turn is the perfect place to mix the drivers before they make the move into mod (if they want to). Also, if the manufacturers want to have full factory drivers for 19 turn go for it. At least it isn't the entry level class.
If you slow the class down so that it's not a challenge for an expert driver it will take the prestige out of stock. Slowing the class will also make a place for new people and the "hobby" enthusiast. Without the speed, the top stock guys will move up to the next faster class (19 turn).
Typically, stock guys totally wig out if you mention slowing stock but providing a bigger gap between the classes is the only way to promote moving up within the classes. 19 turn is the perfect place to mix the drivers before they make the move into mod (if they want to). Also, if the manufacturers want to have full factory drivers for 19 turn go for it. At least it isn't the entry level class.
10-03-2007, 02:53 PM
#65
At this point, I am inclined to play devils advocate by agreeing with a previous post that policing a structure based on experience is simply too daunting. It would require keeping track of every ROAR member. This implies that everyones first ROAR race after the structure took effect, would begin to accumulate statistics. Who the hell is going to keep track of this? The obvious answer is ROAR, but that means we need to elect a statistician who will do this monumental job on a volunteer basis. Other forms of motorsport have governing bodies with PAID employees who can run ranking systems like the one proposed here. Sadly, there is no money in R/C for this type of system.
To achieve my goal of promoting the sport of r/c TC racing to RTR customers, bashers, and the exsisting budget minded racers, I now propose that no changes be made to the ROAR Stock TC class for these people. Stock should be changed, but the responses in here do not lead me to believe that any amout of tinkering with the Stock rules would do the sport any good on the whole.
Instead, how about we create a Novice class. Whether or not this proposed Novice class has a place at a National level event, or not, is another matter entirely. Please consider this, many tracks and organizations use ROAR as a guideline to run their own racing programs, regardless if they and/or their members are registered with ROAR. ROAR is in a position to provide a class structure for newbies that could get them involved in the sport in a way more interesting, more rewarding and more accessably than the current Stock TC class allows. To the nay sayers who comlain of watering down the competition, keep in mind the only people in this class are newbies and a minority of exsisting racers who already own a budget chassis (Cyclone S, T2R, etc.) This class would be a breeding ground at local races for a very wide range of RTR kits, budget chassis, older and less competitive tub chassis, as well as the many offerings from Tamiya that are not cometitive with the current crop of Stock class, podium pounding, high dollar chassis's.
I would like to expound on this idea, but need to travel for a few hours. BRB!
To achieve my goal of promoting the sport of r/c TC racing to RTR customers, bashers, and the exsisting budget minded racers, I now propose that no changes be made to the ROAR Stock TC class for these people. Stock should be changed, but the responses in here do not lead me to believe that any amout of tinkering with the Stock rules would do the sport any good on the whole.
Instead, how about we create a Novice class. Whether or not this proposed Novice class has a place at a National level event, or not, is another matter entirely. Please consider this, many tracks and organizations use ROAR as a guideline to run their own racing programs, regardless if they and/or their members are registered with ROAR. ROAR is in a position to provide a class structure for newbies that could get them involved in the sport in a way more interesting, more rewarding and more accessably than the current Stock TC class allows. To the nay sayers who comlain of watering down the competition, keep in mind the only people in this class are newbies and a minority of exsisting racers who already own a budget chassis (Cyclone S, T2R, etc.) This class would be a breeding ground at local races for a very wide range of RTR kits, budget chassis, older and less competitive tub chassis, as well as the many offerings from Tamiya that are not cometitive with the current crop of Stock class, podium pounding, high dollar chassis's.
I would like to expound on this idea, but need to travel for a few hours. BRB!
10-03-2007, 05:55 PM
#66
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Why is it that you don't see this type of thing in the 8th scale off road forums? Doesn't seem like guys are complaining that they get whooped at every national race by the top factory guys even though they are bunched into the same classes. Could be that there are just less racing classes to choose from period so everyone is in the same pool together. With touring car you have stock, 19 turn, mod, brushless, foam tire, rubber tire and now possibly a potential chassis difference to split guys apart.
10-03-2007, 06:07 PM
#67
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Why is it that you don't see this type of thing in the 8th scale off road forums? Doesn't seem like guys are complaining that they get whooped at every national race by the top factory guys even though they are bunched into the same classes. Could be that there are just less racing classes to choose from period so everyone is in the same pool together. With touring car you have stock, 19 turn, mod, brushless, foam tire, rubber tire and now possibly a potential chassis difference to split guys apart.
10-03-2007, 08:10 PM
#68
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True. When I started racing we had run what you brung in the mid 80's and then as rules cam about you either had stock or mod and that was it for years. No one complained like nowadays but if you look at things in general over the last 25 years we have less racers and more bitching.
When I first started RC racing ( 1969 Cox dragster ) we didn't have too many rules other than how long the string should be.
BUT this AIN'T the 60s, or the 80s so let's deal with now and not the good old days. Other than Mick Jagger what has not changed since then?
Hell, look back 4 years ago... Radios had 36 channels and that was it....
Talk is cheap, back up what you write.. Last time I checked ROAR could use some people to step up and help make this hobby better for everyone.
10-03-2007, 11:52 PM
#69
I just got home from tonight's racing at my local track, the Seattle Indoor Raceway. The weather is starting to turn, so we had a decent turnout: 20+ drivers, with roughly a dozen in GT3 (silver can), and just about all of them new guys with less than six months under them. I can't say enough about how great silver can is at our track. The racing is close, and the cars are tough. We don't have official rules at our track about tub chassis in GT3, but there definitely is a prevailing ethic. One guy liked to run his Xray with a lipo and cleaned up for awhile, but we all referred to it as his "cheater" car and he got the message soon enough.
Which perhaps illustrates a point. At the club level, it's pretty hard to make really rigid rules about what a person can and can't race. It's not like local tracks mint money, and a live body pays a fee, which is good for everyone. But it's possible, even necessary, to establish an ethic about who races what and for how long. At our track, though we race other classes as well, the general pattern is to get your wheels in GT3, probably with a TA05, and then move up to 13.5 (we run 13.5 and stock together--8 minute races.) At which point most drivers buy a graphite chassis. It seems to fit the natural pattern of development in the sport without busting anyone's budget early on. And if someone is going to stick, then a new car for 13.5 is sort of a "graduation," if you will. And c'mon, new gear from time to time is half the fun.
As for the big races, I can't say. I'm hitting a traveling indoor series this fall and will see how it goes. But I don't think ROAR is the right organization to address these issues. Or at least they haven't been. If they pulled their heads out and recognized that top level racing should be an expression of what is happening in the clubs, there would have been accommodations for brushless motors and lipo's by now.
To sum up. Promote an ethic in the clubs about moving on up, and perhaps embrace the silver can/tub chassis class for beginners. Silver can isn't remotely boring (unless you're running on some monster 1/8th scale track, I imagine), as it's close racing and a reasonable learning curve that gets people fired up. As for the stock guys who won't move, strand them in their little happy place. Push the silver can grads into 13.5 and run eight minutes races. It'll be the bigger class soon enough.
Which perhaps illustrates a point. At the club level, it's pretty hard to make really rigid rules about what a person can and can't race. It's not like local tracks mint money, and a live body pays a fee, which is good for everyone. But it's possible, even necessary, to establish an ethic about who races what and for how long. At our track, though we race other classes as well, the general pattern is to get your wheels in GT3, probably with a TA05, and then move up to 13.5 (we run 13.5 and stock together--8 minute races.) At which point most drivers buy a graphite chassis. It seems to fit the natural pattern of development in the sport without busting anyone's budget early on. And if someone is going to stick, then a new car for 13.5 is sort of a "graduation," if you will. And c'mon, new gear from time to time is half the fun.
As for the big races, I can't say. I'm hitting a traveling indoor series this fall and will see how it goes. But I don't think ROAR is the right organization to address these issues. Or at least they haven't been. If they pulled their heads out and recognized that top level racing should be an expression of what is happening in the clubs, there would have been accommodations for brushless motors and lipo's by now.
To sum up. Promote an ethic in the clubs about moving on up, and perhaps embrace the silver can/tub chassis class for beginners. Silver can isn't remotely boring (unless you're running on some monster 1/8th scale track, I imagine), as it's close racing and a reasonable learning curve that gets people fired up. As for the stock guys who won't move, strand them in their little happy place. Push the silver can grads into 13.5 and run eight minutes races. It'll be the bigger class soon enough.
10-04-2007, 05:57 AM
#70
limiting the type of chassis for stock class is an interesting idea. the problem though seems to be more then just chassis type in stock class. when confronted with a problem the best route is to be ask those who are "living" the problem and that is the novices, as that is often where the solution should come from.
for novices the problem is not the chassis type it is driving skill. it matters little what type of chassis they run. they will afford what they can afford when they can afford it. it is their capabilities as a driver that will sort it all out on the track.
obviously, stock class is slower. the 27T motor allows a new driver to learn how to drive. A novice driver does not really have the experience to control with any degree of skill a 19T motor. I am a novice driver and i have spoken with several novices and those who would like to get more involved in the sport. the most daunting obstacle is that we do not have the skill needed to race against the more experienced racers. this fact alone keeps people from coming out and getting involved.
i recently participated in my first event (which used ROAR guidelines) and I could not believe the high degree of skill level and competitiveness in the stock class. It is not much fun and very disheartening to race against people who are much faster, and being constantly told to move over and let them by, or endure the wrath of the experienced driver. thats not racing nor is it fun or motivating, atleast not for a beginner racer. why would i want to race in a stock class filled with "pro" racers, which should be the next step up for a novice. I don't, and many others feel the same.
what is the solution? i don't think it is in chassis type, but rather in promoting a class the less skilled driver can race in and develop their skills. i can understand the reluctance of the experienced driver not wanting to move on to a faster class. it is fun to win, but it is also no fun to not stand a chance of being competitive in a class that should be for beginners. perhaps making it mandatory for the experienced driver to move on or developing a pro stock class would be the solution and make the sport more inviting for the new racer.
for novices the problem is not the chassis type it is driving skill. it matters little what type of chassis they run. they will afford what they can afford when they can afford it. it is their capabilities as a driver that will sort it all out on the track.
obviously, stock class is slower. the 27T motor allows a new driver to learn how to drive. A novice driver does not really have the experience to control with any degree of skill a 19T motor. I am a novice driver and i have spoken with several novices and those who would like to get more involved in the sport. the most daunting obstacle is that we do not have the skill needed to race against the more experienced racers. this fact alone keeps people from coming out and getting involved.
i recently participated in my first event (which used ROAR guidelines) and I could not believe the high degree of skill level and competitiveness in the stock class. It is not much fun and very disheartening to race against people who are much faster, and being constantly told to move over and let them by, or endure the wrath of the experienced driver. thats not racing nor is it fun or motivating, atleast not for a beginner racer. why would i want to race in a stock class filled with "pro" racers, which should be the next step up for a novice. I don't, and many others feel the same.
what is the solution? i don't think it is in chassis type, but rather in promoting a class the less skilled driver can race in and develop their skills. i can understand the reluctance of the experienced driver not wanting to move on to a faster class. it is fun to win, but it is also no fun to not stand a chance of being competitive in a class that should be for beginners. perhaps making it mandatory for the experienced driver to move on or developing a pro stock class would be the solution and make the sport more inviting for the new racer.
There are several problems affecting RC racing right now, and many are interelated. There is no magic bullet that will solve everything. Touring car has a unique problem where the cost of a car kit has taken a big jump up lately. The average price of an off road car or a 1/12 scale has stayed relatively constant, but TC's have gone from around $200 to almost $400. That's tough to swallow for a newcomer. That's why I'm agreeing that a chassis rule in TC may bea good idea.
Things like novice classes and sorting classes by skill have been tried before, and usually don't work. Part of the reason is racers like where they are right now, and don't want to change.
Nitro is completely different from electric. In nitro you can always go in and buy way more horsepower than you can possibly handle. And off road is much more about the driver than the equipment.
It still gets me that someone will drop a weeks paycheck on an engine, but when it comes to electric they only want to run stock.
10-04-2007, 06:01 AM
#71
If you want to make a slower "Novice" class, just have them run the Tamiya 540-J motors.
$17.50 retail.
$17.50 retail.
10-04-2007, 06:10 AM
#72
Tech Regular
With so many tracks only having 20-30 sedans, we really don't need another class. What I think we need is to realign the classes that we have.
Most stock racers will go nuts about slowing stock again (like we did in 91) but that's exactly what we need. This is the only way that I can see the top stock guys moving out of our entry level "stock" class.
Most stock racers will go nuts about slowing stock again (like we did in 91) but that's exactly what we need. This is the only way that I can see the top stock guys moving out of our entry level "stock" class.
10-04-2007, 06:18 AM
#73
I don't have a problem with that either. 35 or 40 turn armatures.
Better get the Big T on board, though.
Also, need to get someone to wind up a few of them to test out.
IF this was the path forward, I would suggest keeping the same can/endbell/magnet/armature blank/etc rules and simply change the winds (# of turns, wire gauge, & motor tag). This way, racers who want to stay in stock simply need to swap out the arm. (Just as brushless guys simply swapped out the bonded rotor for a sintered one).
Any kind of change needs to be as painless to the racers and mfgs as possible.
Better get the Big T on board, though.
Also, need to get someone to wind up a few of them to test out.
IF this was the path forward, I would suggest keeping the same can/endbell/magnet/armature blank/etc rules and simply change the winds (# of turns, wire gauge, & motor tag). This way, racers who want to stay in stock simply need to swap out the arm. (Just as brushless guys simply swapped out the bonded rotor for a sintered one).
Any kind of change needs to be as painless to the racers and mfgs as possible.
10-04-2007, 06:26 AM
#74
I've said it before in one of the few hundred previous threads on this topic, that you cannot FORCE someone to run in a particular class.
What you CAN do, is make the stock class less attractive so that they won't want to run it anymore. Another thought is to stop announcing the sponsors for stock class participants before the mains. Magazines can help by not listing their equipment in the results...just use their names.
We can go on forever with this, and it's been argued here on a bi-monthly basis, it seems.
Keep in mind, that with a change in stock class....you just might have to change 19-turn as well. It would also have to slide-back some to remain a middle-ground between stock & mod. The jump from "new" stock to 19Turn would be too big. Maybe go with the 23-Turn system used overseas.
What you CAN do, is make the stock class less attractive so that they won't want to run it anymore. Another thought is to stop announcing the sponsors for stock class participants before the mains. Magazines can help by not listing their equipment in the results...just use their names.
We can go on forever with this, and it's been argued here on a bi-monthly basis, it seems.
Keep in mind, that with a change in stock class....you just might have to change 19-turn as well. It would also have to slide-back some to remain a middle-ground between stock & mod. The jump from "new" stock to 19Turn would be too big. Maybe go with the 23-Turn system used overseas.
10-04-2007, 07:34 AM
#75
With so many tracks only having 20-30 sedans, we really don't need another class. What I think we need is to realign the classes that we have.
Most stock racers will go nuts about slowing stock again (like we did in 91) but that's exactly what we need. This is the only way that I can see the top stock guys moving out of our entry level "stock" class.
Most stock racers will go nuts about slowing stock again (like we did in 91) but that's exactly what we need. This is the only way that I can see the top stock guys moving out of our entry level "stock" class.
Your idea of slowing stock doesn't make the racing much cheaper, but it does make an older chassis, a budget chassis, or a low tech chassis much more competitive against the current crop of high dollar TC's. This idea of slower motors would also be easy on ROAR because they wouldn't have to change much more than a few lines of text in their handbooks. I like it!