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Old 05-22-2006, 07:07 AM   #14401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floodo1
the shaft is flawed in designing the steering, if you constrain yourself to using pro4 knuckles.

Think about what you're saying. The flaw, if there was a flaw, would be in the steering system's design. not the drivetrain. The knuckles can be re-designed. With that said, once the knuckles were re-designed, would the shaft still remain "flawed"?
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Old 05-22-2006, 11:02 AM   #14402
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryAsian
I have an unexpected race coming up at a venue i have no experience racing at...

Does anyone have a setup for an indoor asphalt circuit?
I assume it'll be tight and twisty..
I've also been told it will have reasonable grip. Not high, but not too bad either.
And it's quite bumpy for an indoor track!!

Setups setups!! LoL.. i'm flying blind...
usually indoor asphalt is low grip because the track temperature stays low because of the shade.

so watch out for that
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Old 05-22-2006, 11:03 AM   #14403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kewdawg

Think about what you're saying. The flaw, if there was a flaw, would be in the steering system's design. not the drivetrain. The knuckles can be re-designed. With that said, once the knuckles were re-designed, would the shaft still remain "flawed"?
yeah, the pro4 suspension is the design constraint. if you remove the limitation of "we are going to use pro4 suspension" then sure the bell cranks could probably be moved up above the shaft (which is now lower) and the knuckles revised for this.
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Old 05-24-2006, 11:54 AM   #14404
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Lightbulb Pro 4 Vs. Cyclone

I'm tired of this "shaft car is better in stock, but belts are better for mod" non-sense! It all depends on the driver and his skills, set-up, weight, etc! The belts/drivetrain has nothing to do with the speed of the car or its handling! Just because you have a belt car it means you can accelerate faster or have more top-speed, and vice versa(although shaft cars tend to have a little more snap when accelerating)- and concerning the Pro 4 or Cyclone, the Pro4 is the older car, and it was studied and triyed to be improved in certain areas with the design of Cyclone...that's all! HPI can easily reverse and design a shaft car that will improve and refine/perfect the design and performance of the Pro4 and Cyclone, based on the info and experience of both cars, and then what? Does this mean that the shaft car is better than belts? Of course not! That doesn't matter! What matters is the design and performance of the car, and of course the driver's skills. On that note: Does anyone know what the weight of the Pro4 Hara edition is, vs the weight of the regular pro4, and also the weight of the Cyclone?(assembled and ready to run): I need to find out which car is lighter and to determine the factors/improvements in weight, etc. I need the lightest yet toughest car possible...thanks!!!

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Old 05-25-2006, 12:21 PM   #14405
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Default Flaws?

Guys we are all looking for the Best Car to Consider Bying or Owning right? but think of It... its not how good someone says it is or what the World Champion is using right now.
Look... we all think that Hara is using the Cyclone cause its Perfect... Hey he is using it Cause that is the latest and so far gave him an Edge for Mod racing cause the Belt absorbs the initial torque thus giving a smoother take off. compared to the torque stir that a shaft has. but Mind you he is not thinking of Damages and Expenses... we are...
Let me give you some of the Parts that gets damaged with that I have come across with Cyclone and Pro4.

Pro4:
Bevel gears
One Way - Very Rare

Cyclone:
Oneway - I have seen 4 Cyclone users who replaced thiers from the time since Cyclone came out
Servo saver - Very Rare, but Due to that it is single compared to the Pair that Pro4 has it absorbs the Steering impact from time to time.
Shock Tower Holder - Commonly Bent

Both Problems can be Easily Solved.. though you might want to consider how much you will spend to Fix the problems on either Kit.
but then again, If you Are Hara.... you will not have to think of the Expenses
if you are a just a Hobbyist like me, then I might want to consisder the less expensive Kit to maintain.
Mind you,the price of Bevel gears are 9X less than that of a Oneway for a Cyclone. Belts don't come Cheap too.

the rest is up to you all to Decide... but just keep this up in your Head.

He who Braggs a lot about the Flaws of others have more Flaws in Him... somewhere.

hehehe
Cheers!
have a great Racing! Belt or Shaft... it doesnt Matter a lot...
Its your attitude towards others that will matter in the R/C community
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Old 05-25-2006, 12:45 PM   #14406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by junbantay
Guys we are all looking for the Best Car to Consider Bying or Owning right? but think of It... its not how good someone says it is or what the World Champion is using right now.
Look... we all think that Hara is using the Cyclone cause its Perfect... Hey he is using it Cause that is the latest and so far gave him an Edge for Mod racing cause the Belt absorbs the initial torque thus giving a smoother take off. compared to the torque stir that a shaft has. but Mind you he is not thinking of Damages and Expenses... we are...
Let me give you some of the Parts that gets damaged with that I have come across with Cyclone and Pro4.

Pro4:
Bevel gears
One Way - Very Rare

Cyclone:
Oneway - I have seen 4 Cyclone users who replaced thiers from the time since Cyclone came out
Servo saver - Very Rare, but Due to that it is single compared to the Pair that Pro4 has it absorbs the Steering impact from time to time.
Shock Tower Holder - Commonly Bent

Both Problems can be Easily Solved.. though you might want to consider how much you will spend to Fix the problems on either Kit.
but then again, If you Are Hara.... you will not have to think of the Expenses
if you are a just a Hobbyist like me, then I might want to consisder the less expensive Kit to maintain.
Mind you,the price of Bevel gears are 9X less than that of a Oneway for a Cyclone. Belts don't come Cheap too.

the rest is up to you all to Decide... but just keep this up in your Head.

He who Braggs a lot about the Flaws of others have more Flaws in Him... somewhere.

hehehe
Cheers!
have a great Racing! Belt or Shaft... it doesnt Matter a lot...
Its your attitude towards others that will matter in the R/C community

AMEN!

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Old 05-25-2006, 02:22 PM   #14407
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Quote:
Originally Posted by junbantay
Guys we are all looking for the Best Car to Consider Bying or Owning right? but think of It... its not how good someone says it is or what the World Champion is using right now.
Look... we all think that Hara is using the Cyclone cause its Perfect... Hey he is using it Cause that is the latest and so far gave him an Edge for Mod racing cause the Belt absorbs the initial torque thus giving a smoother take off. compared to the torque stir that a shaft has. but Mind you he is not thinking of Damages and Expenses... we are...
Let me give you some of the Parts that gets damaged with that I have come across with Cyclone and Pro4.

Pro4:
Bevel gears
One Way - Very Rare

Cyclone:
Oneway - I have seen 4 Cyclone users who replaced thiers from the time since Cyclone came out
Servo saver - Very Rare, but Due to that it is single compared to the Pair that Pro4 has it absorbs the Steering impact from time to time.
Shock Tower Holder - Commonly Bent

Both Problems can be Easily Solved.. though you might want to consider how much you will spend to Fix the problems on either Kit.
but then again, If you Are Hara.... you will not have to think of the Expenses
if you are a just a Hobbyist like me, then I might want to consisder the less expensive Kit to maintain.
Mind you,the price of Bevel gears are 9X less than that of a Oneway for a Cyclone. Belts don't come Cheap too.

the rest is up to you all to Decide... but just keep this up in your Head.

He who Braggs a lot about the Flaws of others have more Flaws in Him... somewhere.

hehehe
Cheers!
have a great Racing! Belt or Shaft... it doesnt Matter a lot...
Its your attitude towards others that will matter in the R/C community
as you say cyclone the middle one way i have seem few people change it becasue the housing was break
fir the shock tower holder? they have been replace it with the new design more strengthen part some more now they using 3.5mm shock tower so i nearly impossible to bent the shock tower holder.
another thing is cyclone upper deck i have break 2 deck just accidently hit someone car only.
about pro 4 diff bevel gear for one way and spool there will be stripe when you get hard impact but it will be solve by how you shim you one way and spool. i have used it for 5 month without changing the diff gear the only thing i need always changing is the small bevel gear that connect the shaft due to the e-clips design so i have change it to 2005 spec aluminium bevel gear and shaft.
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Old 05-25-2006, 08:51 PM   #14408
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Quote:
Originally Posted by junbantay
Guys we are all looking for the Best Car to Consider Bying or Owning right? but think of It... its not how good someone says it is or what the World Champion is using right now.
Look... we all think that Hara is using the Cyclone cause its Perfect... Hey he is using it Cause that is the latest and so far gave him an Edge for Mod racing cause the Belt absorbs the initial torque thus giving a smoother take off. compared to the torque stir that a shaft has. but Mind you he is not thinking of Damages and Expenses... we are...
Let me give you some of the Parts that gets damaged with that I have come across with Cyclone and Pro4.

Pro4:
Bevel gears
One Way - Very Rare

Cyclone:
Oneway - I have seen 4 Cyclone users who replaced thiers from the time since Cyclone came out
Servo saver - Very Rare, but Due to that it is single compared to the Pair that Pro4 has it absorbs the Steering impact from time to time.
Shock Tower Holder - Commonly Bent

Both Problems can be Easily Solved.. though you might want to consider how much you will spend to Fix the problems on either Kit.
but then again, If you Are Hara.... you will not have to think of the Expenses
if you are a just a Hobbyist like me, then I might want to consisder the less expensive Kit to maintain.
Mind you,the price of Bevel gears are 9X less than that of a Oneway for a Cyclone. Belts don't come Cheap too.

the rest is up to you all to Decide... but just keep this up in your Head.

He who Braggs a lot about the Flaws of others have more Flaws in Him... somewhere.

hehehe
Cheers!
have a great Racing! Belt or Shaft... it doesnt Matter a lot...
Its your attitude towards others that will matter in the R/C community
You have forgotten a few more quirks that both the pro4 and the cyclone share, Diff screws(they do break as the traction goes up)I have replaced mine with the Associated one. Hubs..if you race where they use solid barriers the hubs are a bit on the brittle side.. I used to own a track so I know(carpet)..When I raced on carpet with my Pro4 I did not hit to much "stuff" and a few time i did really just tap the boards and did break the c hub.. I ran with a diff in the front and rear so i did not really have to many gear problems, I did have some with a one way and a spool. When i did have some problems it's not like i was surprised.. No matter what it's still a Great TC..
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Old 05-27-2006, 07:20 PM   #14409
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Hey fellows,
I am happy to report that the combination of 2mm chassis and Hara top deck yeilds pretty good mechanical grip on asphalt track. I was fighting for more steering through out last year, but this setup seems to work pretty good so far.

The bad thing is that, it still doesn't seems to be good enough, especially lost to two TA-05 today.....

Is it just me or the springs for Pro 4 are very stiff compares to other kits. Like Tamiya medium spring is yellow, seems like it feels softer than the softest spring (blue) for pro 4 on the car.

Anyway, I am thinking to remove sway bars from the car, what do you guys think? I am racing on asphalt track, and there are couple of hair pins that I break pretty hard. So, I am pretty much giving up on oneway. Is spool really the ticket for asphalt racing? When I tried spool, I just couldn't get enough off power steering.
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Old 05-28-2006, 02:17 AM   #14410
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I've run the Pro4 for a while now... i'm not sure about the spring comment. But do consider that different suspension geometries require different rates...
You can also play around with the lower shock mounting options. Ie. moving the shocks inboard to soften things up.

Steering depends on your track. The pro4 has abundant steering. Most setups use hard front springs and softer rears. I ran mine last night in cold weather, around 10C running blues in front, silvers in the rear and the car was hooked.

This is of course very very general but i've found the car to have plenty of steering. I was running alot of droop though. 3 on the front, 4 on the back. 5 mm front height, 6.5 on the rear.

Running a GTB 5.5 the car easily beat 3 other cars running 4.5's just because it carried alot of corner speed. I use a silver bar on the front, copper on the rear. I don't know anyone who doens't run A/R bars on their Pro4...

But more chassis roll does increase your corner grip so it might be worth a try.

Sorry about the general nature of the post, but as always you need a local for proper setup tips..
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Old 05-28-2006, 10:13 AM   #14411
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryAsian
I've run the Pro4 for a while now... i'm not sure about the spring comment. But do consider that different suspension geometries require different rates...
You can also play around with the lower shock mounting options. Ie. moving the shocks inboard to soften things up.

Steering depends on your track. The pro4 has abundant steering. Most setups use hard front springs and softer rears. I ran mine last night in cold weather, around 10C running blues in front, silvers in the rear and the car was hooked.

This is of course very very general but i've found the car to have plenty of steering. I was running alot of droop though. 3 on the front, 4 on the back. 5 mm front height, 6.5 on the rear.

Running a GTB 5.5 the car easily beat 3 other cars running 4.5's just because it carried alot of corner speed. I use a silver bar on the front, copper on the rear. I don't know anyone who doens't run A/R bars on their Pro4...

But more chassis roll does increase your corner grip so it might be worth a try.

Sorry about the general nature of the post, but as always you need a local for proper setup tips..
I'm in agreement with the spring rates and it's relationship with suspension geometry.General set ups, I run 4 degree hubs in the front most of the time, I have found that seems to give a good balance to the car. In stock on asphalt I did not run sway bars * (something I have rethought after running carpet 5 times a week for a year.. ) * I ran the kit set up and did not use sway bars, In stock I always run a one way, I don't care if their are "hairpins" I will find a way to drive it ( ) You can use brakes with a one-way..You need to set your transmitter so the brakes wont lock, Make sure your straight.. It does work. The Pro4 seems to be "body" sensitive.. By that a huge difference can be made by just changing the body. On asphalt the Mazda 6 (for me) is dialed, If i go to a different body the balance is not their. When I run on carpet a Nemesis is the ticket for rubber..The Nemesis is also the "ticket" if you want to free up the car and don't feel like wrenching on your car..I also want to be able to run the hardest tires i can get away with..Even if you set up your car soft and run harder tires than what everyone else is you will still carry more corner speed than someone else who is running a harder set up with softer tires..But you need to run sway bars with a soft set up..It's just an opinion, Everyone drives different and expects their car to work a certain way..This is the tough part on giving set up advice..I have driven a few of my buddy's cars and could not figure out how in the *^$# can you drive that car.. But they felt the same about my car..
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Old 05-28-2006, 07:56 PM   #14412
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Well, AngryAsian and xxkat, thanks for your input. Regarding to the springs rates, I read that some drivers would get their car front/rear balace (50/50), which I have manage to do so with my pro 4, then they use the springs that would give you the same feeling as you push down the car. With different geometries, you would need different springs on the front and back, so that when you push down both ends, it would give you the same feeling. Then you adjust the car accordingly. I have found it to be extreme on pro 4. I don't know if that's because the motor is hanging so far back or not. On my car, I almost have to use white springs on the front and blue springs at the rear to give me the same push down feeling.

Now, if you look at the Corally RDX, it has the same geometries on the front and rear. If you look most of the belt cars, they have better front/rear balance. Even the HB advertises Cyclone has near 50/50 balance front to rear. It seems to me that most of the shaft cars have more weight at the rear, and I am pretty sure that's why the pro 4 has "harder" geometry at the rear (shock mounts to be far out on the rear arms vs front arms"

I am currently runing stratus 3.0, and seems to work pretty good on asphalt. Oneway............ Well, xxxkat, what do you run with mod? It requires a big change in different driving style to run with oneway, so I am not sure if I want to jump to oneway yet. For sure that I am going to try without the sway bars first. AngryAsian, I guess unless it's the setup for my car, it'll just to be general, right? Thanks
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Old 05-28-2006, 08:14 PM   #14413
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Impulse:

I only ever run a one-way. It's so much smoother and it gives you so much more steering. I've not heard of the balancing the spring rate theory. In my eyes i doesn't make sense.

For a balanced spring-rate to work, the car has to be in a static mode of acceleration. Ie. coasting along. At all other times, the car is putting more weight on the back (Accelerating) or the front(braking). So balancing the rates is irrelevant right?

In fact, many car manufacturers will even move static weight around to account for handling balance during acceleration. Some tout a 50/50 balance as best. Some want a 60/40 (for even handling when the car is accelerating), some say 40/60 is better (to give more drive off the line and increase rear traction generally)...

Weight wise most tourers are a little heavy at the back. Only because the cells sit centrally in most cars and the motor which is teh next heaviest component sits out back. The "central" motor cars like the old x-rays, the ta-05 and the rc lab cars are more 50/50.

In my experience, most pro4 setups use harder fronts because the car already has abundant steering. The stock setup is just so.. a little stiffer up front.

For me - i always think of the dynamic suspension balance.. a softer rear = more drive and less steering on acceleration. Eg. out of a corner. Which is perfect. It allows you to be a bit more brutal on throttle and rotate the car not with steering lock, but on the throttle. Harder fronts also reduce weight transfer when you back off the throttle or brake.

This is more important for a shaft car because of the direct nautre of teh drivetrain. A strong dragbrake motor can easily break rear traction. So the less weight transfer up front, the better. Think of how easy it is to spin with a one-way on the brakes. ANything to improve consistency is great.


Lastly - for antiroll bars.. the idea is to get your car to run around the track as flat as possible. That is, whilst still having as much corner speed as you need. This really helps with consistency. A car that rolls a lot will have lots of corner grip and speed, but will transition wildly. If it rolls too much you will even start losing forward drive as the diffs unload.

So the flatter the better. Most use the antiroll bars to reduce traction at one end.

My one-way setups always use the harder AR bar on the front. It reduces steering a little when the car is in midcorner and really loaded up and stops the whole car from flopping over. The rear i keep soft to keep it inline. It also lets you use slightly less toe in on ther ear which helps with speed.

Cheers!
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Old 05-29-2006, 03:23 AM   #14414
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Yeah, the balance spring rates is not really using the same spring rates. It's how it feels at each end of the car as you push down. From what I heard, it's just a starting point. I guess spring rate isn't that far off from front to back anyway, so I guess it's not a bad starting point. From my experince, Most of the cars run one to two rates stiffer on the front.

You guys are making me want to switch to oneway again......
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Old 05-29-2006, 04:35 AM   #14415
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One quick question, I have always thought that anti-squat reduces rear traction; Since you reduce the amount of the car squat at the back, therefore, there are less weight transfer to the back. However, in the Pro 4 manual, it says that anti-squat adds rear traction??????? Anyone running pro-squat?
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