4LikesTamiya TRF416 / TRF416WE / TRF416X
05-01-2009, 02:26 AM
#5266
Tech Regular
iTrader: (1)
John, I am very sorry that you apparantly are completely unable to actually read my posts for real. I am also very sorry that you cannot follow the logic I presented. Just because a certain setting would under normal circumstances not be used does not mean it is not valuable to think it through. There is after all a REASON WHY you would never use that setting and that is the point I am making.
However, thankfully I was not making my points so much for as I was making them for the other readers, especially the ones that are just starting out. Most if not all of them will be able to follow both our logic and make up their own mind which makes the most sense. Personally I feel you are confusing the issue because you yourself keep confusing the total effect of settings combined with the principal effect of a single setting. To setup a car you need to be able to reason out how each single setting works and then use logic to combine the effects of the different settings to figure out how the car will react.
I will say this once more, setting up a car is not a linear business and therefore most, if not all, rules of thumb are flawed.
However, thankfully I was not making my points so much for as I was making them for the other readers, especially the ones that are just starting out. Most if not all of them will be able to follow both our logic and make up their own mind which makes the most sense. Personally I feel you are confusing the issue because you yourself keep confusing the total effect of settings combined with the principal effect of a single setting. To setup a car you need to be able to reason out how each single setting works and then use logic to combine the effects of the different settings to figure out how the car will react.
I will say this once more, setting up a car is not a linear business and therefore most, if not all, rules of thumb are flawed.
05-01-2009, 04:59 AM
#5267
John, I am very sorry that you apparantly are completely unable to actually read my posts for real. I am also very sorry that you cannot follow the logic I presented. Just because a certain setting would under normal circumstances not be used does not mean it is not valuable to think it through. There is after all a REASON WHY you would never use that setting and that is the point I am making.
However, thankfully I was not making my points so much for as I was making them for the other readers, especially the ones that are just starting out. Most if not all of them will be able to follow both our logic and make up their own mind which makes the most sense. Personally I feel you are confusing the issue because you yourself keep confusing the total effect of settings combined with the principal effect of a single setting. To setup a car you need to be able to reason out how each single setting works and then use logic to combine the effects of the different settings to figure out how the car will react.
I will say this once more, setting up a car is not a linear business and therefore most, if not all, rules of thumb are flawed.
However, thankfully I was not making my points so much for as I was making them for the other readers, especially the ones that are just starting out. Most if not all of them will be able to follow both our logic and make up their own mind which makes the most sense. Personally I feel you are confusing the issue because you yourself keep confusing the total effect of settings combined with the principal effect of a single setting. To setup a car you need to be able to reason out how each single setting works and then use logic to combine the effects of the different settings to figure out how the car will react.
I will say this once more, setting up a car is not a linear business and therefore most, if not all, rules of thumb are flawed.
Bullship
05-01-2009, 05:12 AM
#5268
Tech Rookie
Basically, a tyre provides the most grip when its contact patch is at its maximum. Therefore there is not 1 optimum camber setting, as the camber should constantly change with the roll of the car.
As Tony said, -1.5deg is generally around the right compromise for having the maximum contact patch over 1 lap. Anything more than that and sometimes you will get the tyre to have a larger contact patch over 1 lap, sometimes you won't.
Like Ed and Tony say, its a compromise and you cannot simply say more camber = more grip.
Ideally you would want a different camber setting for each corner, so the contact patch is at its optimum for the amount of roll the car has.
05-01-2009, 07:02 AM
#5269
oh get over it allready
Has anyone modified their motor mount to fit a Johnson 540?
Has anyone modified their motor mount to fit a Johnson 540?
05-01-2009, 08:40 AM
#5271
not always true, just so ya know. sometimes you lower the contact patch to get the tire to operate at a higher temp to make the tire work. example street circuits sometimes you run more camber to make the contact patch hotter to get the tire to work. (more common on compounds on the harder side)
05-01-2009, 08:48 AM
#5272
05-01-2009, 09:36 AM
#5273
05-01-2009, 09:52 AM
#5274
Basically, a tyre provides the most grip when its contact patch is at its maximum. Therefore there is not 1 optimum camber setting, as the camber should constantly change with the roll of the car.
As Tony said, -1.5deg is generally around the right compromise for having the maximum contact patch over 1 lap. Anything more than that and sometimes you will get the tyre to have a larger contact patch over 1 lap, sometimes you won't.
Like Ed and Tony say, its a compromise and you cannot simply say more camber = more grip.
Ideally you would want a different camber setting for each corner, so the contact patch is at its optimum for the amount of roll the car has.
As Tony said, -1.5deg is generally around the right compromise for having the maximum contact patch over 1 lap. Anything more than that and sometimes you will get the tyre to have a larger contact patch over 1 lap, sometimes you won't.
Like Ed and Tony say, its a compromise and you cannot simply say more camber = more grip.
Ideally you would want a different camber setting for each corner, so the contact patch is at its optimum for the amount of roll the car has.
More camber , more grip!
See how easy that was ?
Thats my story and I'm sticking to it.
Now shut the hell up and go try it.
And of course it means during cornering regardless of roll center.
That is unless you have camber loss under load , that would be detrimental.
Everyone is pissing me off about semantics and suggesting that some absurd amount of camber means ... Awe F^#k it ! Just go and try it !
05-01-2009, 09:55 AM
#5275
I can't believe that would happen. Not even after that car going backwards on the straight that I ran into could cause such a calamity.
05-01-2009, 10:25 AM
#5276
Yes I can... watch !
More camber , more grip!
See how easy that was ?
Thats my story and I'm sticking to it.
Now shut the hell up and go try it.
And of course it means during cornering regardless of roll center.
That is unless you have camber loss under load , that would be detrimental.
Everyone is pissing me off about semantics and suggesting that some absurd amount of camber means ... Awe F^#k it ! Just go and try it !
More camber , more grip!
See how easy that was ?
Thats my story and I'm sticking to it.
Now shut the hell up and go try it.
And of course it means during cornering regardless of roll center.
That is unless you have camber loss under load , that would be detrimental.
Everyone is pissing me off about semantics and suggesting that some absurd amount of camber means ... Awe F^#k it ! Just go and try it !
e.g. I ran 2 degrees camber and had LESS traction than 1, those aren't extreme numbers, it just wasn't the right setting for the track/conditions/camber gain etc. The tire contact was inadequate, only the inside third wore; less camber and it was hooked up again. You may be running a couple degrees, then go to my track and say "I need more traction, I must reduce the camber". It's great that on your track your results support your hypothesis, but why would you inform other racers as it being factual, and mislead them?
This thread is very amusing though.
05-01-2009, 10:37 AM
#5277
Ignore basic physics, and it seems to reveal ignorance. A simple image would be an inverse parabola, there is a optimal point where the camber will raise traction, but any number less (or or greater) will be less than optimal.
e.g. I ran 2 degrees camber and had LESS traction than 1, those aren't extreme numbers, it just wasn't the right setting for the track/conditions/camber gain etc. The tire contact was inadequate, only the inside third wore; less camber and it was hooked up again. You may be running a couple degrees, then go to my track and say "I need more traction, I must reduce the camber". It's great that on your track your results support your hypothesis, but why would you inform other racers as it being factual, and mislead them?
This thread is very amusing though.
e.g. I ran 2 degrees camber and had LESS traction than 1, those aren't extreme numbers, it just wasn't the right setting for the track/conditions/camber gain etc. The tire contact was inadequate, only the inside third wore; less camber and it was hooked up again. You may be running a couple degrees, then go to my track and say "I need more traction, I must reduce the camber". It's great that on your track your results support your hypothesis, but why would you inform other racers as it being factual, and mislead them?
This thread is very amusing though.
I would say then your roll centers are incorrectly adjusted .
Sounds to me you are losing camber during cornering (more positive) instead of gaining it(more negative). As the chassis rolls the camber needs to pull the top of the wheel in so the tire can remain in full contact with the ground and never lift the inside lip of the rim from the ground.
Look fellas.... Hold your car in one hand by the back, straighten your steering and place the front tires on the table. Then apply rotation to the chassis like a pendulum and watch the camber and how its effected. This is whats happening during cornering. Turn it around and do the same. One of the reason we try to keep the roll centers close to one another is so that while cornering and the chassis actually rolls, we want the same amount of camber gain on both ends so we don't upset the balance of the car.
If you do not have enough camber gain lets say in the rear , most likely your car will spin out mid-corner. The front had more camber (more grip) therefor the car spins out ..... nuff said ... change the subject!
05-01-2009, 10:56 AM
#5278
416 Parts
Is there a good place to get 416WE parts online in USA? If so can someone direct me. Thanks in advance!
05-01-2009, 12:36 PM
#5280
What they don't have they can get for you as long as you know the part #.
