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Old 02-17-2008, 10:35 PM   #1396
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Wanna see my post? lol
I got a 416 and its awesome baby!!!
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Old 02-18-2008, 12:57 AM   #1397
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Originally Posted by syndr0me View Post
What other brand of springs are a direct fit for this car? I might build one up for foams. Yuck.
Just about any spring. XRay, HPI, AE, Hara, etc, etc.
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Old 02-18-2008, 01:42 AM   #1398
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Originally Posted by Fastforward View Post
what do you think the key elements were to the higher corner speed? Was it the track condition alone or something in particualr in the set up?
The track yesterday was quite large (Carpet wars is, IIRC 12 full rolls of carpet), and being carpet, naturally has a good amount of traction. This obviously increases as the day goes on, and it's towards the end of the day that I tend to set the car up for. Put it this way, in practise, it was drift mania...

I had a problem last time out when it just felt like the car was rolling and binding mid-corner on some of the sweepers, and I just couldn't keep up with the fast guys.... I had one run that was a 0.2sec diff (fast/avg), so I was consistent, just not fast enough

This time round, I made sure I had the car set up for minimal roll, hence the high roll centres (1mm under front blocks, 1.5 under rear). If it was a tighter and twistier track, I may have dropped that a bit, but given the wide, open, grippy nature of the track, coupled with the low power of the stock, this worked really well.

Also, I've noticed that the car has a lot of rear end traction, way more than the 415 did. This does tend to make the rear end very well planted, however when the grip comes up, it's too planted. To counter this I went for a lower amount of rear toe than I tend to run (B/E so 1.5deg), a medium rear rear bar, and stood the rear shocks up one hole as well. Worked very well at freeing the car up, also giving it more rotation. The rear shocks being stood up helped to cure a lack of on power steering I had too.

Also moved the rear wheelbase back 1mm, and that also seems to have helped steady the car a bit. Other addtion I need to add to the sheet was additive, of LRP Carpet, at 1/2 front, full rear.

Anyway with that setup I managed to break into the 15s laps yesterday, with a best of 14.95, the fastest lap I saw posted was a 14.81, so very happy with that. Car handled brilliantly, it was my cells that are begining to let me down now... my IB42's have hit the end of their racing life, they are going soft after 4mins. Started off the day with that setup, only made 1 change to it all day, which was the moving of the rear shocks (before was running them in hole 4 on the tower).

Unfortuantly, didn't have the best of luck, as I kept numptying the car off on the first lap of the qualifiers.... first round simply by being first car round the track, and not realising how much the grip had come up from practise. So I just decided to treat the run as a test session, and tune the radio settings. Even with a 26 and 31 second lap, finished the round 20th

Second round, rolled first turn by clipping a bot dot... although my fault laid before that as I had used more additive on the front than I ment too. Still, managed to get going reasonably quickly, and started to trade fastest laps with the guy leading. Was starting to pull away, until I came up on another car who just wouldn't let me go, ended up diving up the inside to get by, and them promptly got hit and rolled again, moving the motor and stripping the spur. Scratch round2....

Round three, much better, apart from again being a numpty and putting the car on it's roof first lap Made a change to the motor for this round, and it didn't work, car felt flat with little punch. Managed 4th in the heat, putting me 13th overall.

Final round, ballsed that up even before the round begin, as 3 minutes before the start of the I reverse connected my MRT... manged (with thanks to the air duct) to get my sphere mounted up and in the car, unfortuantly wired up the wrong way round... changed it over, but missed the first lap of the race. Even with a 39sec first lap, was only 13 sec off improving my time!! (average of say 15.3s, so lost a lap and a half) Diff of 0.4s fastest/avg otherwsie so was a pretty good run.

Without that, I'm pretty certain I would have been in the A, as the other driver I was trading fastest laps with end up 4th overall, I ended up 14th with my 3rd round time.

As for the final, this really hammered home the corner speed advantage. Had a good start (for once), and ended up in second after the first lap. Started to real in first place, in couple of sections of the track, it was easy to see I was carrying more speed, literally taking chunks of time out. Then made an error to let third back through, but managed to get back in front after he made an error too... got right back onto the bumper of 1st, and were nose to tail going through the final chicane when I got slightly off line, clipped a bot and end up on my roof. With only a minute left, had to settle for third, but was a good clean close race, which made it very enjoyable

Had a number of comments after the race at just how good the car looked, carrying lots of speed, changing direction quickly, but also stable. I knew there was a lot of potential in the car

Just need to improve my luck a little, and it'll be A final easy next time...

Cheers
Ed
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Last edited by TryHard; 02-18-2008 at 04:38 AM.
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Old 02-18-2008, 06:00 AM   #1399
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Hey ED, I too have that problem with the rear end being too planted. Tamiya was serious when they said they would do this for the sake of handout rubber tire racing. Only problem is us stock racers suffer! haha. Anyways, I'm also running B/E blocks in the rear. And I'm currently messing around with rear camber link settings. Have you thought of shifting the whole weight of the car forward by shimming the arms towards the rear of the car? And also using the right spur/pinion to shift the motor as far forward as you can with the right ratio? Always, I'm on my quest for more steering/rotation... Let me know if you find good results.
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Old 02-18-2008, 06:07 AM   #1400
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On a side note:

Ball Diffs. I really love this ball diff. But here are some tips to help keep it clean.

1.Buy the JAAD or Tamiya ball diff stickers. Or make your own. Use diff grease in the area's show on the JAAD instructions to keep dirt out and keeping the sticker from sticking to the diff halves.

2.Set your diff and tape over the setting hole. I use a thin strip from my battery strapping tape. Just wrap around the diff half covering the hole.

3. Plug up your diff halve end where the diff head scew is located. Basically stuff a piece of foam or rubber in the long diff half to cover up the screw head. This along with the tape over the diff setting hole will keep dirt/dust out of the thrust being.

Now you have a nicely sealed diff!
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Old 02-18-2008, 06:18 AM   #1401
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Originally Posted by JimmyMac View Post
On a side note:

Ball Diffs. I really love this ball diff. But here are some tips to help keep it clean.

1.Buy the JAAD or Tamiya ball diff stickers. Or make your own. Use diff grease in the area's show on the JAAD instructions to keep dirt out and keeping the sticker from sticking to the diff halves.

2.Set your diff and tape over the setting hole. I use a thin strip from my battery strapping tape. Just wrap around the diff half covering the hole.

3. Plug up your diff halve end where the diff head scew is located. Basically stuff a piece of foam or rubber in the long diff half to cover up the screw head. This along with the tape over the diff setting hole will keep dirt/dust out of the thrust being.

Now you have a nicely sealed diff!
The Jaad stickers, ceramic 3mm balls and ceramic thrust bearing are sweet. I have never had such a locked smooth diff in my life. Too bad no one makes a rubber grommet to cover the diff holes.
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Old 02-18-2008, 06:19 AM   #1402
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I saw the 416 first hand yesterday and all i can say is that its too pretty to runn
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Old 02-18-2008, 07:00 AM   #1403
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Originally Posted by JimmyMac View Post
Hey ED, I too have that problem with the rear end being too planted. Tamiya was serious when they said they would do this for the sake of handout rubber tire racing. Only problem is us stock racers suffer! haha. Anyways, I'm also running B/E blocks in the rear. And I'm currently messing around with rear camber link settings. Have you thought of shifting the whole weight of the car forward by shimming the arms towards the rear of the car? And also using the right spur/pinion to shift the motor as far forward as you can with the right ratio? Always, I'm on my quest for more steering/rotation... Let me know if you find good results.
Did you feel a noticeable difference going from the stock 3 degrees of toe to 1.5 degrees of toe?
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Old 02-18-2008, 07:55 AM   #1404
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Did you feel a noticeable difference going from the stock 3 degrees of toe to 1.5 degrees of toe?
Uhhh, I will get back to you on that. If weather is nice tomorrow, I am suppose to do some setup testing on asphalt. That's what I normally race. I will do a direct comparison test for you with just a 3 degree setting. And then a 1.5 degree setting. And I will get back to you on that. I do have a general idea of what's its done in the past. But I want to be sure. I think in the past it let the rear end break free easier. And might of increased on power steering to a certain point. Where more toe made the car push out on power. However, I had an odd instance on carpet with foams (on my EvoIV) where more rear toe made my car rotate quicker (or better) in a hair pin turn. Either that, or is just made it more stable which seemed to make it rotate better.
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Old 02-18-2008, 08:13 AM   #1405
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Originally Posted by JimmyMac View Post
Uhhh, I will get back to you on that. If weather is nice tomorrow, I am suppose to do some setup testing on asphalt. That's what I normally race. I will do a direct comparison test for you with just a 3 degree setting. And then a 1.5 degree setting. And I will get back to you on that. I do have a general idea of what's its done in the past. But I want to be sure. I think in the past it let the rear end break free easier. And might of increased on power steering to a certain point. Where more toe made the car push out on power. However, I had an odd instance on carpet with foams (on my EvoIV) where more rear toe made my car rotate quicker (or better) in a hair pin turn. Either that, or is just made it more stable which seemed to make it rotate better.
Hey Jimmy,

Don't forgot if you want a true comparison of the toe setting, to alter both front and rear blocks, as if you change just one end, you'll also be widening/narrowing the car... Admitidly difficult to do when you drop down to 1.5, as you have to change one or t'other at some point

What I mean (and this is for others reading here, not you really, as you probably already know this ) is that a XA/B is narrower than a B/E setup, but gives the same amount of toe.
Also the wheelbase lengthen too (regardless of blocks) hence why I only moved my rears back 1mm, rather than the 2mm I had been suggested

Having said that about block widths, I still found the widest possible better on the rear. I will try A/D at some point next time out though, too give a comparison, as I wonder if the rear will rotate better still slightly narrower.

My concern when going to less toe was losing some mid-corner... but having run yesterday with 1.5, no reason to worry. Couple in the addition of slightly less drag for better straightline, and then couple that again with increased corner speed... I was able to get away with a slightly higher gearing than before, simply cause I could carry more speed

Interesting thought on the weight thing too, might test that out as well, just swap some spacers round and try the whole chassis 1mm further forward.

Certainly agree with you on the ball diff too... it's just awesome. Using the Jaad covers is the best way, along with the Jaad balls and thrust, plus I sand the rings with some (damp) 600grit, to lightly etch the rings. Result = one ubber smooth and long lasting diff, thats easy to set... Tamiya got this diff spot on IMO

Let us know how you get on with your testing.
Cheers
Ed
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Last edited by TryHard; 02-18-2008 at 08:56 AM.
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Old 02-18-2008, 08:15 AM   #1406
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I saw the 416 first hand yesterday and all i can say is that its too pretty to runn
Looking to add another to your stable Marcos? you know you want too...
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Old 02-18-2008, 08:25 AM   #1407
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Originally Posted by JimmyMac View Post
Uhhh, I will get back to you on that. If weather is nice tomorrow, I am suppose to do some setup testing on asphalt. That's what I normally race. I will do a direct comparison test for you with just a 3 degree setting. And then a 1.5 degree setting. And I will get back to you on that. I do have a general idea of what's its done in the past. But I want to be sure. I think in the past it let the rear end break free easier. And might of increased on power steering to a certain point. Where more toe made the car push out on power. However, I had an odd instance on carpet with foams (on my EvoIV) where more rear toe made my car rotate quicker (or better) in a hair pin turn. Either that, or is just made it more stable which seemed to make it rotate better.
Thanks, that all makes sense. I'm going to try 2 degrees of toe this weekend and see what happens. Regardless, if I make the main or not I will post my setup afterwards. And I picked up a Mazda 6 to try so hopefully that helps too.
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Old 02-18-2008, 09:13 AM   #1408
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I had an outing yesterday with the 416 on an entirely new track that was nearly twice as large as the one I'd been running on. It also used Jack instead of Paragon, which took some getting used to. It may not smell, but that stuff is WAY more nasty and dirty than Paragon. The temporary track is on a crowned surface, so there's some interesting moments where the suspension will unload and then load again, almost like you're going over a jump, but without actual air time. It looks odd when the car does it, but it actually handled the bumps like a champ, and really didn't give me much trouble. I raised the front roll center to do away with some mid-corner hooking, and the car felt pretty darn good, especially as the traction came up.

I've been flirting with the idea of trying the car on foams, since the foam class here runs 10.5 motors, and I'd love to stretch out on this big track. I just haven't heard anything positive about the 416 on foams, so I'm a little wary of possibly wasting a race day trying to get it dialed in. Plus, you know... foams. Yuck.
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Old 02-18-2008, 12:47 PM   #1409
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The temporary track is on a crowned surface, so there's some interesting moments where the suspension will unload and then load again, almost like you're going over a jump, but without actual air time.
like this?
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Tamiya TRF416 / TRF416WE / TRF416X-hov9.jpg  
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Old 02-18-2008, 01:02 PM   #1410
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Ed, your car looked great yesterday. You where unlucky not to make the A. Maybe round 6.
The car is easily one of the quickest through the infield.

Regards
Richard.
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