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Old 07-14-2010, 12:59 PM   #9271
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So I wanted to provide some feedback on some testing a couple of us were doing last night. We (Syndr0me and I) were testing on CRC carpet with Jaco Rubber tires. The main focus was to try different diff positions in the rear of the car. What we found was very interesting...when the diff is in the low position (Dot up) the car was very stuck and seemed to almost stop mid corner. With the diff in the high position (Dot down) it really freed the rear end of the car in a very dramatic way. I was really surprised how different it made the car feel on the track. The diff in the high position made the car pretty hard to drive, but it was pretty fast. The diff in the high position off power made the car feel unpredictable.

At the end of the night we both ended up the way we started which was the rear diff in the low position.

Anyway just wanted to provide some insight into our testing and I would say that you should give it a try to see if it could be the next change that you need to go a little faster.

Testing was done on a stock 416X and 416X with WE rear bulkeds and two piece top deck. Results were very similar...
You should also try the high position for the spool also. need to dremmel some material off the bulkheads though.

This was the ticket to get faster laptimes on our track (2/10th) and was also used by the TRF team at last years Euros and maybe this year...
Not sure it's soo good on carpet, but you might to work a litle on the setup.
I always use high position on asphalt.

Cheers,
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Old 07-14-2010, 04:41 PM   #9272
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Originally Posted by Eirik View Post
You should also try the high position for the spool also. need to dremmel some material off the bulkheads though.

This was the ticket to get faster laptimes on our track (2/10th) and was also used by the TRF team at last years Euros and maybe this year...
Not sure it's soo good on carpet, but you might to work a litle on the setup.
I always use high position on asphalt.

Cheers,
Eirik
I hate you. Now I'm tempted to dremel my beautiful blue bulkheads.
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Old 07-14-2010, 04:48 PM   #9273
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I hate you. Now I'm tempted to dremel my beautiful blue bulkheads.
Your on your own...there is no way a dremel is allow within 500 yards of my Tamiya's.


What do you guys think this is a Losi?
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Old 07-14-2010, 06:29 PM   #9274
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You would probably be OK just using shorter ballstuds so they dont stick out through the bulkhead.

I would probably go for a high rear diff on carpet, and then lower the rear RC just a tad to calm the car down (raise the camber link up 1mm or something)
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Old 07-15-2010, 02:18 AM   #9275
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I hate you. Now I'm tempted to dremel my beautiful blue bulkheads.
Eirik is EVIL!
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Old 07-15-2010, 02:38 AM   #9276
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Originally Posted by Eirik View Post
You should also try the high position for the spool also. need to dremmel some material off the bulkheads though.

This was the ticket to get faster laptimes on our track (2/10th) and was also used by the TRF team at last years Euros and maybe this year...
Not sure it's soo good on carpet, but you might to work a litle on the setup.
I always use high position on asphalt.

Cheers,
Eirik
Do you require to install the rear diff in high position too?
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Old 07-15-2010, 03:39 AM   #9277
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Do you require to install the rear diff in high position too?
Viktor Wilck told me to run both the spool and diff inn the high position, I have never tried to run only one of them in the high pos.

I ran one pack inn the stock pos. and my laptime was 13.20sec.
The next run 30min later with both inn the high pos. my laptime was 12.99sec and my average laptime was also 2/10th faster.
The car felt really quick this way, but it did not feel quite right, so I raised the roll center both front and rear by 0.5mm (shim under the susp. blocks)
Viktor told me to try this also, and after that it was super good! 12.90sec lap!

linger:
It's not much you have to dremmel, maybe 0.7mm or so.
Also, you wont see the dremmel job at all ;o)

kentech:
I posted a comment on your site, did you see it?

Eirik
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Old 07-15-2010, 05:58 AM   #9278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirik View Post
Viktor Wilck told me to run both the spool and diff inn the high position, I have never tried to run only one of them in the high pos.

I ran one pack inn the stock pos. and my laptime was 13.20sec.
The next run 30min later with both inn the high pos. my laptime was 12.99sec and my average laptime was also 2/10th faster.
The car felt really quick this way, but it did not feel quite right, so I raised the roll center both front and rear by 0.5mm (shim under the susp. blocks)
Viktor told me to try this also, and after that it was super good! 12.90sec lap!

linger:
It's not much you have to dremmel, maybe 0.7mm or so.
Also, you wont see the dremmel job at all ;o)

kentech:
I posted a comment on your site, did you see it?

Eirik
Steps:
1) Raise front spool & rear diff (marking "0")
2) Raise both front arm (C/C) & rear arm (XA/E) toe blocks rc by 0.5mm?

What if my rear arm toe blocks (XA / E) has 1mm under each block? should i add further 0.5mm?

Thanks.
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Old 07-15-2010, 08:04 AM   #9279
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Steps:
1) Raise front spool & rear diff (marking "0")
2) Raise both front arm (C/C) & rear arm (XA/E) toe blocks rc by 0.5mm?

What if my rear arm toe blocks (XA / E) has 1mm under each block? should i add further 0.5mm?

Thanks.
Yes, rotate the bearing holder 180deg. so that the smallest notch is facing up both front and rear.

If you already have 1mm under your rear arm, then you are fine, same as I have.
I have 0.5mm under both front blocks as well.

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Old 07-15-2010, 08:53 AM   #9280
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Tamiya Bearing Oil & Diff grease ...
Attached Thumbnails
Tamiya TRF416 / TRF416WE / TRF416X-ta-42169.jpg   Tamiya TRF416 / TRF416WE / TRF416X-ta-42170.jpg   Tamiya TRF416 / TRF416WE / TRF416X-ta-42172.jpg  
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Old 07-15-2010, 09:14 AM   #9281
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Originally Posted by geeunit1014 View Post
You would probably be OK just using shorter ballstuds so they dont stick out through the bulkhead.

I would probably go for a high rear diff on carpet, and then lower the rear RC just a tad to calm the car down (raise the camber link up 1mm or something)
Yeah the only issue with this is that I am running a slammed RC on the arms and with the high diff it is just too loose an unpredictable.

I am first gonna put the diff back in the high position and then measure the height of the out drives from the bottom of the chassis.
Then put the diff back to the low position and then shim the bulkeds (And top deck) up so that I can fine tune the height.

In my head this works, but I am sure there is something I am not considering.
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Old 07-15-2010, 09:54 AM   #9282
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While we are talking about roll centers... This is something I have never messed with, but have seen a lot of talk about it lately. My 416 is a little too planted in the rear and I saw in here that there should be .5mm shims under the rear susp. holders. Mine does not have them so I'm going to add them to see if that gets me where I need to be. My question though is what is the difference between putting the shims under the mounts vs. putting the shims under the camber links? Isn't that also changing the RC?
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Old 07-15-2010, 09:59 AM   #9283
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In my humble opinion, when you change the shims under your camber links, what you feel is more the change of camber gain than roll center. On my 416, it's a much more dramatic change in terms of how the car feels than putting shims under the blocks.
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Old 07-15-2010, 10:06 AM   #9284
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Originally Posted by JCarr View Post
While we are talking about roll centers... This is something I have never messed with, but have seen a lot of talk about it lately. My 416 is a little too planted in the rear and I saw in here that there should be .5mm shims under the rear susp. holders. Mine does not have them so I'm going to add them to see if that gets me where I need to be. My question though is what is the difference between putting the shims under the mounts vs. putting the shims under the camber links? Isn't that also changing the RC?

When you put shims under your arms you are raising the roll center, and when you put shims under your camber links you are lowering the roll center...

To lower the roll center you would raise the inner camber link position and lower the front arm. You could also lower the outside camber link as well.
Lower
More on-throttle steering.
Car is less responsive.
More weight transfer at front of car.
Better on smooth, high grip tracks with long fast corners.


To raise the roll center you would lower the inner camber link and raise the front arm. You could also raise the outside camber link as well.
Higher
Less on-throttle steering.
Car is more responsive.
Less weight transfer at front of car.
Use in high grip conditions to avoid traction rolling.
Use on tracks with quick direction changes (chicanes).
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Old 07-15-2010, 10:19 AM   #9285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artwork View Post
When you put shims under your arms you are raising the roll center, and when you put shims under your camber links you are lowering the roll center...

To lower the roll center you would raise the inner camber link position and lower the front arm. You could also lower the outside camber link as well.
Lower
More on-throttle steering.
Car is less responsive.
More weight transfer at front of car.
Better on smooth, high grip tracks with long fast corners.


To raise the roll center you would lower the inner camber link and raise the front arm. You could also raise the outside camber link as well.
Higher
Less on-throttle steering.
Car is more responsive.
Less weight transfer at front of car.
Use in high grip conditions to avoid traction rolling.
Use on tracks with quick direction changes (chicanes).
Thatnks for the replies guys, but now I'm a little more confused. I'll have to find the post, but it said to raise the rear RC to get more steering. The problem I have is that the rear is planted and pushes when on throttle, but if I let off and let the car "set" I can get back on throttle on make the corner. I'm losing a lot of time having to slow down way early so the car "set" for the corner. Right now I have no shims under any of the susp. mounts, what result would putting the .5mm shims under the rear mounts(fr/rr) get me?
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