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Old 07-23-2009, 03:39 PM   #6016
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u/k > u/s

I had to take some toe in out of the rear , for some reason one of my blocks didn't change to what I wanted so I made a compromise and ended up wider and even less toe that I wanted..... and it was awesome baby ! 1B/1F 2 deg and wide, no spacers at the wheel. Aggressive and yet stable.
Hey John, is that for sure 1B/1F or 1XB/1F ? Please confirm, and was that on carpet again? Thanks
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Old 07-23-2009, 03:48 PM   #6017
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why does anyone need to memorise such useless gobledygook?

I prefer to use logic and observation and my explanation reflects that rather than "magic" or "feel" or "vibe" or whatever else people come up with.

And don't take it personal, I am just trying to suggest people can reconstruct things by thinking (rather than rely on memory), no need to get defensive.
There's a difference in our perspectives. To me, feel comes come experience. If you don't have the proper feel, your interpretations of observations will be wrong. All the explanations in the world won't help Renault's engineers drive to a world championship. They need someone like Alonso to tell them what he thinks is wrong.

Thinking and memory are directly related. Your memories actually create your personality and determine how you think. Relying on memory and thinking are essentially one in the same since what's in your memory will cause you to think in a particular way. What you are suggesting is a more empirical and standardized view centered around scientific theory. Personally, the human experience is more important to me, which is why I spoke of the "feel."

Last edited by HI_808; 07-23-2009 at 04:21 PM.
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Old 07-23-2009, 03:48 PM   #6018
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I have been using the Mazdaspeed 6 LW body mostly lately. For the new track, I am having a 4 or 5 year old Yokomo Stratus Type E body painted up. This body has more steering than anything else on the market, hands down. I think they stopped production on them though. If anyone sees one on a shelf somewhere PM me and I'll buy it!
Don't PM him, PM me!! I want a Stratus E!! I love those bodies! Does anyone know where to get the RaySpeed Accord body? I love those as well.
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Old 07-23-2009, 04:11 PM   #6019
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Hey John, is that for sure 1B/1F or 1XB/1F ? Please confirm, and was that on carpet again? Thanks
2 Degrees rear toe in.
1B/1F ... carpet.
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Old 07-23-2009, 04:12 PM   #6020
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I have been using the Mazdaspeed 6 LW body mostly lately. For the new track, I am having a 4 or 5 year old Yokomo Stratus Type E body painted up. This body has more steering than anything else on the market, hands down. I think they stopped production on them though. If anyone sees one on a shelf somewhere PM me and I'll buy it!
Randy, call Billy. I think there were a few of those buried under all the protoform bodys.
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Old 07-24-2009, 01:20 AM   #6021
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Originally Posted by HI_808 View Post
There's a difference in our perspectives. To me, feel comes come experience. If you don't have the proper feel, your interpretations of observations will be wrong. All the explanations in the world won't help Renault's engineers drive to a world championship. They need someone like Alonso to tell them what he thinks is wrong.

Thinking and memory are directly related. Your memories actually create your personality and determine how you think. Relying on memory and thinking are essentially one in the same since what's in your memory will cause you to think in a particular way. What you are suggesting is a more empirical and standardized view centered around scientific theory. Personally, the human experience is more important to me, which is why I spoke of the "feel."
I don't think the difference is in the perspective (or not as demonstrated by our dialogue here). I just argue fuzzy logic and vague notions such as those invoked by you and (unfortunately) many others make for a lot of confusion. Sure, there may be people who do indeed know what they talk about and can communicate that way (and if you're one of them, well good for you) but I think most people only think they understand such dialogues. I have seen such people on the track and going into deeper detail ina discussion you realise how confused they are.

Sure, there are subjects like art or quantum mechanics where fuzzy logic is the norm but in engineering you will find very little of that. Even less in F1 since you mention it. Most drivers of the past were first and foremost accomplished engineers (at least before the advent of the computer data logging systems of these days whose code I am pretty sure wouldn't recognise notions such as "feel").

As for me, not sure about the relation between them, but my memory is way less reliable than my logic and I guess with age things can only go worse for the memory department.
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Last edited by niznai; 07-24-2009 at 08:38 AM.
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Old 07-24-2009, 04:31 AM   #6022
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The difference in perspective is clear. I favor circumstantial action and don't think engineering explanations suit every situation. You seem to.

If you're going to support very empiric explanations, then your explanations need to be more logically sound and free from contradictions because your explanation of camber change is far from being vivid. I'm sure it makes a lot of sense to you and I do understand what you are saying, but in the process of deconstructing the phenomena in discussion, you leave too many principles out to be absolutely clear. That's why I asked you questions for clarification.

To be clear about the theory behind cars, more than many books worth of information is needed. That is too much for a single post in a forum. Therefore, providing a practical explanation is sufficient. If the receiver of the explanation wants to make relationships clearer or learn new principles, he can inquire on his own.

I myself, like empiricism. However, I believe in experience as the key to learning. Conducting tests is the only way to learn the principles of tuning. That is how you learn to observe and feel for what your car is doing and to learn to make valid inferences based on scientific theory. You define "feel" in a very different way than I do. Perhaps to you, feel is a little tingly thing. For me, to feel is the ability to perceive, observe, and interpret; to have the right feel is to have skill.

I have no intent on carrying this on any longer in this thread any longer.
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Old 07-24-2009, 06:35 AM   #6023
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I have no intent on carrying this on any longer in this thread any longer.
phew

because you have both got me so confused i think my head is my arse

good discussion though
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Old 07-24-2009, 08:53 AM   #6024
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.....
I have no intent on carrying this on any longer in this thread any longer.
Dude, don't get mad. I am only trying to encourage people to think for themselves not taking a shot at anyone. Actually I agree with most things you say (to such extent that I don't think we're having an argument). I just think presenting solutions in an oversimplified way doesn't really help people. And this hobby is a lot deeper than it seems and all that depth it's worth exploring. If one stops at the ready-made setup tips they won't get very far, that's all I think.
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Old 07-24-2009, 09:08 AM   #6025
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Dude, don't get mad. I am only trying to encourage people to think for themselves not taking a shot at anyone. Actually I agree with most things you say (to such extent that I don't think we're having an argument). I just think presenting solutions in an oversimplified way doesn't really help people. And this hobby is a lot deeper than it seems and all that depth it's worth exploring. If one stops at the ready-made setup tips they won't get very far, that's all I think.
my head hurts when i read the posts from you two.
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Old 07-24-2009, 10:14 AM   #6026
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their technical dowacky was confusing me

all i know is if i use jilles set up my car works

dont need to know why or how
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Old 07-24-2009, 03:25 PM   #6027
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Randy, call Billy. I think there were a few of those buried under all the protoform bodys.
Perfect, thanks Scott!
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Old 07-24-2009, 06:28 PM   #6028
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Dear Randy,

Do you use the stock wing that come with the Yok Stratus E?
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Old 07-24-2009, 06:40 PM   #6029
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Have anyone gotten the new shock towers yet? Just wondering how much offset the new holes are versus current. Thanks.
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Old 07-24-2009, 06:49 PM   #6030
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Dear Randy,

Do you use the stock wing that come with the Yok Stratus E?
Brian Kinwald actually used the wing from the Losi Alfa body, and once going to that I don't think I used the stock wing much anymore. That body is extremely twitchy and has a major lack of rear end grip, and that wing seemed to calm it down enough to be easily driveable.
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