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Old 11-14-2008, 10:37 AM   #3226
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lol,

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Old 11-14-2008, 10:44 AM   #3227
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I don't argue... I simply state the facts! And it would seem that most of you overlook the obvious. As for the 27.5 comment... lots of kits come with 30wt.
And the tamiya stuff tends to run a bit thin in comparrison. Don't try to read between the lines or put something that isn't there against me. It is obvious that some people are not accustomed to an educated opinion. So be it! I will be racing tonight while others will be taking screws out of their cars.

USE LOCTITE OR KISS YOUR NUTS GOOD-BYE!
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Old 11-14-2008, 10:47 AM   #3228
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Most of us have been looking for these ones a long time.... Outdrives for the 416 spool by Delrin.... now here it is, so grab yours... (I just ordered before posting this link... lol)
http://rcmarket.com.hk/product_info....jieimeqmdf4647
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Old 11-14-2008, 10:53 AM   #3229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Low_E View Post
John St.Amant,

I'm not english-speaking and I don't always understand everything said or writen overhere ... but what I do understand is that you mostly disagree with what everybody tells overhere. Advice is given .. and all you do is disagreeing.
You tell the one-piece-deck makes the chassis stiffer ... some experienced drivers give you the proper arguments, showing your way of thinking was not correct ... and you start "yelling" about something else.
Why do'nt you go somewhere else if we annoy you
I merely suggest that the route taken to achieve is not the ideal one .
And the only thing that annoys me is how you all spell "tyres".
Doesn't he work for Bob Novak? sorry Tyre
As for the upper deck... No one seems to follow what I'm trying to say. Once again there must be something lost in the translation to whatever language you speak. A ridgid chassis makes suspension changes more noticible and more effective. Allowing for more flex is just stressing more parts unnecessarily. OIL>>> SPRINGS>>> TIRES!!! Period. And I'm not "shouting".

Tony V. Seems to be the only person that understood what I was trying to say.

Oh BTW, we love your waffels!
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Old 11-14-2008, 11:06 AM   #3230
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Originally Posted by John St.Amant View Post
There are 8 screws and the shock tower reinforcing that so called stifness.
Try what you will.. do what u may.. if all your friends jumped off a bridge would you ? The only difference is now you have to take out all those screws to change your spur gear. If they want flexibility .. use fiberglas!
And I would never stress my chassis like you are suggesting. Perhaps you should all be using a TA05Rifs instead of a 416. And for some reason, I dont think that gal on the left is wearing any panties!
For starters, I'm a composite engineer by trade... so using fibreglass ain't the be all and end all! You can easily make a fibreglass plate as stiff as a carbon one... it just be much thicker, and heavier.

You treating a composite plate in the same way as an alloy one.. i.e. it has the same properties in all directions. That simply isn't the case here, as if you had ever bothered to do some research into composite strucutres you would realise they are orientated in the directions required. For our application (and I KNOW because I've stripped one apart) the plates are made up of 0 (longitudinal) and 90 (lateral) fabrics... there are no 45 which would give the same level of stiffness in torsion. This is effectively what wer're playing with by adjusting stuff such as the top deck and cross braces. Fore and aft, and side to side is stiffness is high, whilst the torsion (which is what the car will experience in a corner... think cross weights here), it's less, which generates more grip, and also helps to smooth the car out.

You don't quite seem to have grasped the concept that the cars are designed to flex.. how the 416 does it is very linearly across it's length... i.e. no really hard spots for the car to twist around... apart from the front and rear bulkheads, which is pretty much what you want (keeping the suspension components and the mounting areas stiff).

Anyway, I think we should all agree to disagree here, it's pretty obvous to me that you are not going to be budged from your stance... and all I can do is re-iterate, try it, and see for yourself. After all, if you don't try, you won't know.

Regards
Ed
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Old 11-14-2008, 11:13 AM   #3231
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Just thinking some more on this... Tony V touches on it with his comment about the springs and dampers not being able to take the loading. The shocks and dmapers we use, are at best, pretty darn crude compared to full size race versions.

Try as we might, we still only have limited control over things such as pack, fast rebound, fast damp, slow rebound, slow damp etc. I don;t know about you, but if I want to make my car more absorbent to bumps, I need to run the shocks softer... and so suffer in the turns... I can't simply twiddle a nob and have changing the fast bump speed.

As Tony mentions, it's just a balancing act of getting the right amount of flex in the car to compensate for a) our limited level of control and b) the less than perfect suspension we employ to cope with pretty staggering cornering forces... after all, if we wanted loads of flex, we'd just remove the top deck
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Old 11-14-2008, 11:16 AM   #3232
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Originally Posted by John St.Amant View Post
As for the 27.5 comment... lots of kits come with 30wt
I should actually amend my previous statement to include

"If you ever run 27.5 wt in your shocks on a TC... you got issues, or are running the DJ suspension "
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Old 11-14-2008, 11:30 AM   #3233
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Hey Ed... I do understant the concept if the carbon fiber weave. Imphatically actually. I love the stuff. Not only is it stronger than steel pound for pound but depending on the resin used it will change the properties of the material.
And I must reiterate that I would and do use a TA05 outdoors as it is much more suited for the application. Once again.. no one is listening.
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Old 11-14-2008, 11:41 AM   #3234
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yup, i don't understand. Must be me

Quote:
Originally Posted by John St.Amant View Post
I stand by my rebutle... OIL< SPRINGS<TIRES!
Quote:
Originally Posted by John St.Amant View Post
OIL>>> SPRINGS>>> TIRES!!! Period.
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Old 11-14-2008, 11:48 AM   #3235
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Homer Simpson says this all the time .. "Stupid Flanders!"
Sorry ... tyres
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Old 11-14-2008, 11:55 AM   #3236
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it was no comment on an eventual typo (pa-lease!) , but merely the fact that I do not understand:
oil>springs>tire ...
oil<springs<tire
which are 100% contradicting eachother.
first one saying oil-choice is the most important
second line saying oil is the less important


fyi:
( http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/tyre )
Quote:
tyre
variant spelling of tire (n.).
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Old 11-14-2008, 11:56 AM   #3237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John St.Amant View Post
Homer Simpson says this all the time .. "Stupid Flanders!"
Sorry ... tyres
Actually both spellings are correct. It's just that being american you spell it one way and the brits spell it the other. The brits might argue that they came up with the language and so they're correct and you ain't.

I for one find you quite entertaining, especially when you seem to contradict yourself by saying that the TA05 is an awesome car outdoors because it flexes, then you say that no flex is best.

I'll tell you this, a long top deck helps the car cope with different levels of grip. It allows for more flex yes, but as Ed pointed out, it's the centre of flex that matters and probably what happens with this new top deck is that the centre of flex is changed.

Last but not least, only one TRF car was ever designed with carpet in mind, and it was the first 415. Every otherTRF car, from the 414 to this latest 416 was designed with tarmac racing in mind, where you want more flex.
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Old 11-14-2008, 12:17 PM   #3238
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OMG WTF Is wrong with you guys .. since the tire was invented in ohio.. it would stand to reason we set the standard for spelling it.. sheesh.
and as for grip... the < ot the > was used as a spacer .. nothing else..
no grip.. thinner oil.... softer springs.. softer tires.. will yeild more grip.. u could change droop and roll centers would give u better results than removing a screw or cutting a brace. Im done here,, since no one is listening anyways .
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Old 11-14-2008, 12:23 PM   #3239
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Quote:
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after all, if we wanted loads of flex, we'd just remove the top deck
Funny thing that as I can remember Jilles during testing for a Euros coming of the track beaming because his car had so much more traction and corner speed than the run before. He found 0.1-0.2s a lap. When he got back to the pits he noticed he had completely forgotten to tighten the screws on his top deck and it was free floating. That's when we started playing around with o-rings under the top deck screws and we had the flex top deck at the actual Euros. When the track was drying up after a rain shower Jilles decided to change top deck and run the flex one 3 minutes before one of the A-mains. Which he went on to comfortably win as a result.

Sure, John will now say that is asphalt. Ok, remember the XRay T1R? Composite tub chassis right? Very flexible. So at the LRP Master's just after it came out Andy Moore decided to run it in the B-Final after struggling in the heats. He didn't change the setup, just moved everything over from the graphite chassis to the tub and centered the steering. He was flying and the car was much better than with the stiff graphite chassis. So fast in fact that he was running consistent lap times that would have allowed him to challenge Juho for the win the A-final. Moreover a well known IFMAR and EFRA referee was running a Schumacher suffering from grip rolls on just about every corner. I built up my own T1R for him for the last heat and warned him to take it easy in the first few corners. Right after the starting line there was a very tight, slow chicane and he simply floored it and to his complete surprise didn't roll, didn't hit anything, just went through the chicane as if it wasn't there. Probably won 0.3s on his Schumacher then and there already.

Does it allways work? No, the simple rule of thumb is to run the setup as stiff as you can get away with without losing traction. However that does not mean as stiff as possible.
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Old 11-14-2008, 12:23 PM   #3240
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Alright byeee ! And good luck...

Anyway I'd like to congratulate Ed for his first TQ + win at an official event. I was a bit busy myself but when I managed to watch Ed the car looked good and not many mistakes were made.

Hopefully this is the first of a long series

Fab
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