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Old 11-13-2008, 03:31 PM   #3211
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eh?

If you ever run 27.5 wt in your shocks on a TC... you got issues
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Old 11-13-2008, 03:32 PM   #3212
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HAVE YOU SEEN THE NEW XRAY 09?
LOOKS LIKE AN ORANGE 416 WITH A SIDWAYS SERVO DOESNT IT?
SEEMS TO ME THERE SHOULD BE ROYALTIES PAYED TO TAMIYA OR SOMETHING.
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Old 11-13-2008, 03:35 PM   #3213
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YOU KNOW WHAT I MEANT FOOL...
HALF WEIGHTS YOU HALF WHITS
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Old 11-13-2008, 03:42 PM   #3214
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Originally Posted by John St.Amant View Post
HAVE YOU SEEN THE NEW XRAY 09?
LOOKS LIKE AN ORANGE 416 WITH A SIDWAYS SERVO DOESNT IT?
SEEMS TO ME THERE SHOULD BE ROYALTIES PAYED TO TAMIYA OR SOMETHING.
T2RF009 WE

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Old 11-13-2008, 04:19 PM   #3215
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All the companies should be paying royalties to each other if that's the case.

Just look at all the cars in IFMAR Thailand. That chassis layout is the epitome of TC. But I don't see the losi or team magic there.
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Old 11-13-2008, 05:32 PM   #3216
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Originally Posted by John St.Amant View Post
HAVE YOU SEEN THE NEW XRAY 09?
LOOKS LIKE AN ORANGE 416 WITH A SIDWAYS SERVO DOESNT IT?
SEEMS TO ME THERE SHOULD BE ROYALTIES PAYED TO TAMIYA OR SOMETHING.
nah it uses a 2pc deck

Actually the T2 is quite different, it doesnt use susension blocks and the inner camber link mounts are offset ball joints that when rotated move between 4 positions. It's a pretty nifty idea but limits your range of RC adjustments

I think the Cyclone and the 416 have the most in common, the body mounts are even in the same place
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Old 11-14-2008, 01:07 AM   #3217
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John St.Amant,

I'm not english-speaking and I don't always understand everything said or writen overhere ... but what I do understand is that you mostly disagree with what everybody tells overhere. Advice is given .. and all you do is disagreeing.
You tell the one-piece-deck makes the chassis stiffer ... some experienced drivers give you the proper arguments, showing your way of thinking was not correct ... and you start "yelling" about something else.
Why do'nt you go somewhere else if we annoy you
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Old 11-14-2008, 01:10 AM   #3218
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... it doesnt use susension blocks and the inner camber link mounts are offset ball joints that when rotated move between 4 positions. It's a pretty nifty idea but limits your range of RC adjustments...
! and it saves a lot on expensive Tamiya suspension blocks
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Old 11-14-2008, 03:05 AM   #3219
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John, I know you don't believe it but the one piece top deck is indeed about adding more flex, particularly at the rear. While your theory is in principle sound, it only looks at a few factors that are in play here.

The most ideal situation is a fully fixed chassis as well as damping etc. In theory this will maximise grip because the maximum possible grip is achieved when all four wheels have equal load. Problem is that the tyres are unable to handle the peak forces that they have to cope with during cornering (or in fact accelerating/decelerating). So we need damping, springs and chassis roll. All of which absorb some of the peak force within the car allowing the tyres to maintain grip.

So why flex? Well, today speeds are incredibly high. On the straight on the MACH track in Heemstede we do 95Kph on the straight on a 5 minute run... with 5 cells!. That would be 950Kph for a 1:1 car on a straight with a hairpin corner only 100 meters after the top speed is reached. Imagine the deceleration needed and imagine the corner speed which will still be at least 300 Kph!

There is no way on a 1:1 car that the dampers and springs would be able to cope with sufficient part of the force to allow the tyres to maintain grip. And even if there was, the car would immediately bottom out and crash because the chassis roll would be too much. Same goes (yes what works for 1:1 applies to 1:10) for our scale cars.

So in an effort to allow the whole car to absorb more of the force all car designers worry about flex, where is applies, how much too allow while not allowing too much. If they don't we slide. On race events the drivers try different flex settings all the time. Removing some of those screws to increase flex or putting some in again if their tyres provide sufficient traction and the chassis is not rolling too much during cornering. Setting up a car is an art for the simple reason that most effects are not lineair. Too much flex and you have no corner speed, too little flex and you have (you probably guessed it) no corner speed. So the trick is to get the right amount of flex and get it in the right place.
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Old 11-14-2008, 04:27 AM   #3220
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Originally Posted by John St.Amant View Post
There are 8 screws and the shock tower reinforcing that so called stifness.
Try what you will.. do what u may.. if all your friends jumped off a bridge would you ? The only difference is now you have to take out all those screws to change your spur gear. If they want flexibility .. use fiberglas!
And I would never stress my chassis like you are suggesting. Perhaps you should all be using a TA05Rifs instead of a 416. And for some reason, I dont think that gal on the left is wearing any panties!
Laptimes don't lie. A few of us here have actually tried these changes and they have produced faster times.

But like you said, try what you will.. do what u may..
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Old 11-14-2008, 09:07 AM   #3221
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Since when did TC be only allowed to run on carpet? Perhaps a 5mm thick top and bottom chassis is best suited for someone. Chassis flex is a very real tuning point, especially on asphalt where mechanical grip is most needed. Can't wait for the new 416. My new PC might just turn into that.

Oh, and don't underestimate the TA05. It makes highend cars run for their money on asphalt tracks
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Old 11-14-2008, 09:46 AM   #3222
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Originally Posted by tonyv View Post
John, I know you don't believe it but the one piece top deck is indeed about adding more flex, particularly at the rear. While your theory is in principle sound, it only looks at a few factors that are in play here.

The most ideal situation is a fully fixed chassis as well as damping etc. In theory this will maximise grip because the maximum possible grip is achieved when all four wheels have equal load. Problem is that the tyres are unable to handle the peak forces that they have to cope with during cornering (or in fact accelerating/decelerating). So we need damping, springs and chassis roll. All of which absorb some of the peak force within the car allowing the tyres to maintain grip.

So why flex? Well, today speeds are incredibly high. On the straight on the MACH track in Heemstede we do 95Kph on the straight on a 5 minute run... with 5 cells!. That would be 950Kph for a 1:1 car on a straight with a hairpin corner only 100 meters after the top speed is reached. Imagine the deceleration needed and imagine the corner speed which will still be at least 300 Kph!

There is no way on a 1:1 car that the dampers and springs would be able to cope with sufficient part of the force to allow the tyres to maintain grip. And even if there was, the car would immediately bottom out and crash because the chassis roll would be too much. Same goes (yes what works for 1:1 applies to 1:10) for our scale cars.

So in an effort to allow the whole car to absorb more of the force all car designers worry about flex, where is applies, how much too allow while not allowing too much. If they don't we slide. On race events the drivers try different flex settings all the time. Removing some of those screws to increase flex or putting some in again if their tyres provide sufficient traction and the chassis is not rolling too much during cornering. Setting up a car is an art for the simple reason that most effects are not lineair. Too much flex and you have no corner speed, too little flex and you have (you probably guessed it) no corner speed. So the trick is to get the right amount of flex and get it in the right place.
Chassis flex is something that one would use on a rigid vehicle.. like the shifter kart I used to race . The Chassis was tuned by selecting the rear axel thickness and location of a bolt and the tightness of said bolt located thru what is called (no kidding) "the third member" . And like I suggested , if you have shocks (go karts do not) thats what needs to be adjusted. If mechanical grip is what you seek, take a look a Lwewis Hamiltons McLaren and compare it to Filepe Massa's Ferrari. Do you you think that the teams compromised the integrity of the chassis to make it work in the rain? OK..ok.. toy car. But they do things like raise the ride height.. increase the droop. increase downforce.. use sofer "rain tires". and above all decrease the damping and soften the springs!
So as I suggested... Either use a G10 fiberglass chassis or use a TA05.
I do own a TA05 and I use the plastic tub on it. OUTDOORS! As you have so perfectly put it is a great car. And Much more suited for limited traction applications dou to the flexibility of the chassis. Have we all forgotten about the HPI Pro 3? Flexible wonder.. Works awesome outside. Alowing your CARBON FIBER CHASSIS to flex is like playing baseball with toothpicks.
Even then shocks .. springs .. and tires are the MOST effective for tuning your chassis to perfection. Josh Cyrul had the perfect idea for (a car that sadly didn't go into production)that by making a ladder system similar to what Kawada did back in the '90's. Bobby flack smoked everyone in Vegas one year where there was no traction to be found by using a stupid soft setup!
I guess if you are going to allow chassis flex and you want that to be a tuning thing.. Start with the proper chassis! G10 is 100 times more flexible than grapfite. Maybe the 416 John St. Amant edition will have a Fiberglass chassis on it!?
Or just reingineer your original 416 and just cut that brace behind your spurr gear. Many manufacturers seem to find ways to compromise something that is already good enough. Hasn't anyone noticed the X-Ray no longer has the adjustible chassis flex system ? It must have been far too inconsistant.
Once again.. I stand by my rebutle... OIL< SPRINGS<TIRES!
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Old 11-14-2008, 09:51 AM   #3223
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So why don't the manufacturers make a chassis out of G10? That would be ideal for outdoors!
Because it would be ugly and it would not sell. Marketing trumps engineering.
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Old 11-14-2008, 09:59 AM   #3224
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If you won with a nike shoe box,,, everbody would have one!
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Old 11-14-2008, 10:34 AM   #3225
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I don't get what your arguing about. Are you still trying to say that the new upper deck will give less flex than before? Or are you just trying to sneak your way out of owning up to the responsibility of that false statement?

In the end, IT DOESN'T MATTER!

You know what they say: Arguing on the internet is like running in the special Olymics. You may win, but your still retarted...
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