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Old 11-13-2008, 09:46 AM   #3196
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Officially .. if you need more grip.. use softer springs and lighter oil...
A stiffer chassis makes those adjustmente more effective. A softer more twisty chassis make the real adjustments useless... Did Nissan make a softer chassis for thr GTR.. or Chevrolet make a Softer chassis for the ZR1 .. No they didnt! Make the adjustments where they are most suited , not by compromizing the chassis.
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Old 11-13-2008, 09:55 AM   #3197
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It seems like many people (pros included) find it easier to tune a car with some flex, making the sweet spot for the setup a bit easier to hit. Perhaps this is at the expense of some speed over a perfectly tuned suspension on a stiffer platform, but that doesn't seem to really play out in actual R/C car racing.

On low traction surfaces such as asphalt, more mechanical grip seems to be especially beneficial.
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Old 11-13-2008, 10:06 AM   #3198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John St.Amant View Post
Officially .. if you need more grip.. use softer springs and lighter oil...
A stiffer chassis makes those adjustmente more effective. A softer more twisty chassis make the real adjustments useless... Did Nissan make a softer chassis for thr GTR.. or Chevrolet make a Softer chassis for the ZR1 .. No they didnt! Make the adjustments where they are most suited , not by compromizing the chassis.
Since the original 416 upper deck pieces will be available in addition to the 416 Worlds Edition deck, you will be able to choose what suits your style and needs the best, but this is what Tamiya felt was best based on what the drivers and engineers discussed. Based on the fact they have been running these pieces since before the Reedy race and doing quite well in their races, I think they know what they are doing.

And how do you know that the original test Vette or GT-R didn't use a stiffer chassis, and was later changed after testing? There is no way you know for sure because you had nothing to do with it. Who is to say the original test 416 wasn't even stiff than the version that is out now? You don't know, and I don't know so your arguement doesn't hold up. If stiffer is always better was true, then the upper deck should be solid down the middle and 2-3 inches wide.
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Old 11-13-2008, 10:31 AM   #3199
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So why don't the manufacturers make a chassis out of G10? That would be ideal for outdoors!
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Old 11-13-2008, 10:42 AM   #3200
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while some general suspension tuning techniques can be held true between full scale and rc car. The reality is rc's scale speed and g-forces would put full scale into a relm that we can't even imagine.

therefor elements like chassis stiffness and flex are really hard to compare. we can get away with certain things in the rc world that work amazingly to make a car more forgiving and add more grip... but in reality it wouldn't work in a full scale. Mirror what car king stated. we could make rc cars so stiff they wouldn't flex (much like a stitch welded/full tube frame full scale road racing car) but the rc car manfuacteres don't do that. Maybe it's a comprimise between affordability, or electrics or drive train placement. Who knows. But I do know in real race cars stiffer chassis is better. Street cars this is not the case... and it seems the same for rc cars.
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Old 11-13-2008, 11:22 AM   #3201
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It's all about what works. Tamiya has been softening up their TC chassis since the MSXX in 06. First a flexier upper deck, followed by a thinner lower deck. Then a separated rear brace, separate motor mount bulk-head. Finish that up with removal of the link between the steering and upper deck, and now removal of rear crossbrace once again. I'm not surprised by these moves one bit. It's all about finding the right balance of all elements...
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Old 11-13-2008, 11:35 AM   #3202
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You also have to take into consideration within the last year, tire companies have had to change their compounds due to a certain chemical being made illegal. This dramatically reduced grip that tires had, which could also nessecitate a chassis with more flex.
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Old 11-13-2008, 12:38 PM   #3203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minimusprime View Post
while some general suspension tuning techniques can be held true between full scale and rc car. The reality is rc's scale speed and g-forces would put full scale into a relm that we can't even imagine.

therefor elements like chassis stiffness and flex are really hard to compare. we can get away with certain things in the rc world that work amazingly to make a car more forgiving and add more grip... but in reality it wouldn't work in a full scale. Mirror what car king stated. we could make rc cars so stiff they wouldn't flex (much like a stitch welded/full tube frame full scale road racing car) but the rc car manfuacteres don't do that. Maybe it's a comprimise between affordability, or electrics or drive train placement. Who knows. But I do know in real race cars stiffer chassis is better. Street cars this is not the case... and it seems the same for rc cars.
Comparitavely the R/C chassis are way stiffer than full sized cars .. where have you ever seen a real car pull 10 g's in a corner ...let alone acceleration? Your toy car will smoke an F1 car to a point. And as for scale reference .. what works there .. works here. I guarantee it. Then there a significant power to weight ratio difference. If a GTR had about 5000 hp or weighed only 35 pounds, then perhaps what you are saying might make sence. Thats just not the case.
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Old 11-13-2008, 01:32 PM   #3204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John St.Amant View Post
Comparitavely the R/C chassis are way stiffer than full sized cars .. where have you ever seen a real car pull 10 g's in a corner ...let alone acceleration? Your toy car will smoke an F1 car to a point. And as for scale reference .. what works there .. works here. I guarantee it. Then there a significant power to weight ratio difference. If a GTR had about 5000 hp or weighed only 35 pounds, then perhaps what you are saying might make sence. Thats just not the case.
maybe you're missing something. you just agreed with what i wrote.
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Old 11-13-2008, 02:24 PM   #3205
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Can someone tell me the advantage off the Damper HL Cylinder?

Check http://rcmarket.com.hk/product_info....01qmo5jelclch5
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Old 11-13-2008, 02:26 PM   #3206
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Redrc has some pics of Marc's car. Reading the report I wouldnt be copying his setup just yet tho






I like the carbon look weights at the back (I assume thats what they are)
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Old 11-13-2008, 02:37 PM   #3207
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lol . thats not from a one piece deck.. thats from the shorter rear arms.
certainly the upper deck isnt effecting the grip . over the amount of hardware and to aluminum.. please...
John, I'm with every one else here...
you look at where material has been removed and how the deck mounts, and you'll easily see that it is designed to flex more. It's a subtle change, but still noticeable..

What also needs to be considered is its not simply just adding flex, but how the car flexs. Look again closely at the 416, and you'll see all the chassis and top deck screws are mirrored about the centre line, and then there is the split rear bulkhead... if flex wasnt the issue, why did tamiya make the effort on this front, and why not have one piece rear bulkheads?

And you are quite wrong about the stiffness of the chassis too, could you flex a real car just by twisiting it? I doubt it! A carbon chassis plate is stiff in two directions only, longitudinal and transverse, not in torsion (they are made up of 0 / 90 UD fibres)... don't believe me, try it for yourself.

And as a final point... bear in mind how we control the cars.. by their very nature it's a remote... not by seat of the pants feel from inside. Making the car more forgiving is very much required.

I hate to say it, but your really comparing apples with oranges by comparing a real car with a 1:10th tourer. And it also seems you have made up your own mind on it. All I can suggest is try it your own way (stiff chassis, soft suspension) then try it the way pretty much everyone else is doing it... and let us know which worked better...
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Old 11-13-2008, 02:42 PM   #3208
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thats y losi makes 27.5 wt and so forth.... all the tweeners
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Old 11-13-2008, 03:05 PM   #3209
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thats y losi makes 27.5 wt and so forth.... all the tweeners
eh?

If you ever run 27.5 wt in your shocks on a TC... you got issues
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Old 11-13-2008, 03:29 PM   #3210
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There are 8 screws and the shock tower reinforcing that so called stifness.
Try what you will.. do what u may.. if all your friends jumped off a bridge would you ? The only difference is now you have to take out all those screws to change your spur gear. If they want flexibility .. use fiberglas!
And I would never stress my chassis like you are suggesting. Perhaps you should all be using a TA05Rifs instead of a 416. And for some reason, I dont think that gal on the left is wearing any panties!
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