Associated Factory Team TC5, Brushless, LiPo, Li-ion Nanophosphate, Tips and Tricks
11-19-2007, 11:00 AM
#451
Tech Master
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Under that rock you just kicked over!!!!
Posts: 1,040
STLNLST-Thanks. I'll give those HPI nuts a try. I have been using succesfully Losi nut which are narrow. I bought a set of TC3 nuts to hide a little more of the axle as they are taller. This prevents the axle from digging into the boards. I think that they are a bit too tall and the nylon is not fully engaged. I put on the TC5 nuts now which are "hidden" in the sway bar bag of parts. They are a little shorter and fully engage the nylon. They may work out as well.
john
john
11-19-2007, 06:19 PM
#453
Thanks all for the wheel nut tips.
midnight. I have not personally witnessed an Orion Battery fire. They are of a safer chemistry. Conditions that may cause a fire are still the same although the fire will be smaller. I would still charge these in a safe place like a Lipo sock, Lipo Sack, or tall pan of some kind. Note that that last fire I reported on was a NiMH battery and not a Lipo.
John
midnight. I have not personally witnessed an Orion Battery fire. They are of a safer chemistry. Conditions that may cause a fire are still the same although the fire will be smaller. I would still charge these in a safe place like a Lipo sock, Lipo Sack, or tall pan of some kind. Note that that last fire I reported on was a NiMH battery and not a Lipo.
John
11-19-2007, 08:14 PM
#455
John,
I know I read that you are going to run on carpet. When do you feel that will begin to happen?
Thanks for all the great info
God Bless
I know I read that you are going to run on carpet. When do you feel that will begin to happen?
Thanks for all the great info
God Bless
11-20-2007, 02:20 PM
#456
Jsaves-There has been steady progress on the carpet track. The windows are in and the interior skinned. I don't have a definite completion time. I do know that if you run rubber tires, you can use almost the same setup as on indoor asphalt. I imagine with foams you will have to go with a little stiffer springs. I'll give you a report when the track is complete. Things are slow right now with daily rains.
John
John
12-01-2007, 06:23 PM
#457
Track Report
Cool. My test on locked diff equipped front wheel nuts continued.
TC5 Stock Blue mini nuts with flanges. Fell off after 1/2 pack.
SRS nuts 4 mm with serrated flange (no nylon lock). Fell off after half a pack.
4 mm standard steel Nylock nut from an assortment at the shop. WORKED OK. These seemed to work fine. The Nylon was really tight on first assembly.
Note I received many suggestions on these axle nuts recently. It will take a while to work through them.
My lightweight glued up plastic locked diff is working OK.
I do need some new LOSI thick plastic hexes as they get damaged when a nut is backing off the front.
The TC5 was fast. No deterioration it seems from a couple of weeks of rainouts. The Saleen body handled very well. We had a good race groove built up from practice today. No TIR parts have come in yet. I sent a second note in to TIR. It could be now it is starting to be delayed by holiday mail.
(new project quad throttle bodies for the Ford Focus for those rainy days. This and a more recent topic in my Journal)
John
Cool. My test on locked diff equipped front wheel nuts continued.
TC5 Stock Blue mini nuts with flanges. Fell off after 1/2 pack.
SRS nuts 4 mm with serrated flange (no nylon lock). Fell off after half a pack.
4 mm standard steel Nylock nut from an assortment at the shop. WORKED OK. These seemed to work fine. The Nylon was really tight on first assembly.
Note I received many suggestions on these axle nuts recently. It will take a while to work through them.
My lightweight glued up plastic locked diff is working OK.
I do need some new LOSI thick plastic hexes as they get damaged when a nut is backing off the front.
The TC5 was fast. No deterioration it seems from a couple of weeks of rainouts. The Saleen body handled very well. We had a good race groove built up from practice today. No TIR parts have come in yet. I sent a second note in to TIR. It could be now it is starting to be delayed by holiday mail.
(new project quad throttle bodies for the Ford Focus for those rainy days. This and a more recent topic in my Journal)
John
Last edited by John Stranahan; 12-01-2007 at 08:20 PM.
12-03-2007, 03:31 PM
#458
Titanium Racing
Titanium Racing
Spool
My Titanium Racing Spool and lightweight aluminum center shaft arrived.
here are a couple of pics. Here is a link to the old design. When you order this old part from the web site you will get the new design. So what is different. The main difference is the Black Nylon outdrive now has a flange that sits behind the bearing to capture it well and keep it concentric (no woble) after a tap on the boards. The center of the spool now contacts the bearing well with the blades. This should keep it concentric as well. You can see the assembly with an outdrive bearing installed on the left side of the oudrive. In the previous model The outdrive just sticks into the end and is held by a cross shaft somewhat. (note bearings are not included). The assembly is finished off in my edition with a non slotted aluminum sleeve. I have thought of reinforcing mine in just such a manner. I had not thought of how this sleeve would be captured; apparently TiR has not either or has just not told me. Maybe a spot of CA. If you do a complete glue up it is not going to have the desired flex.
Aluminum Center Shaft
The center shaft is nicely finished with the gear flange well lightened. You should be able to see this clearly in the second photo. Radial run out (up and down movement on the spur) and lateral runout (side to side movement on the spur) should be improved over the stock parts. The pulley rock can be cured in the same manner as before with only two parts to glue up. Rock the center pulleys apart and glue them together. They did include new pins.
The Web Experience
The TiR web experience was not very good, but give them some time. It should improve. My order was not complete with what I ordered. Instead of spare Nylon outdrives I received extra aluminum oudrives which I did not order. (I have seen this before from smaller shops). I did get the extra aluminum sleeves that I ordered and they are the blue ones that came with the spool, so I think I ordered properly. They were probably low in stock on the Nylon pieces. I did not get the promised pinions for the extra two week delay of my order. They may come later or not. Anyway the package took only 7 days to get here after it was posted. 15 days after the first e-mail sent requesting shipment details + 15 days of idle time. Maybe it's better to call them on the phone. No invoice or part numbers were included with the order.
Tests to come. Sundays race was rained out, but there may be a makeup date next Sunday.
John
Spool
My Titanium Racing Spool and lightweight aluminum center shaft arrived.
here are a couple of pics. Here is a link to the old design. When you order this old part from the web site you will get the new design. So what is different. The main difference is the Black Nylon outdrive now has a flange that sits behind the bearing to capture it well and keep it concentric (no woble) after a tap on the boards. The center of the spool now contacts the bearing well with the blades. This should keep it concentric as well. You can see the assembly with an outdrive bearing installed on the left side of the oudrive. In the previous model The outdrive just sticks into the end and is held by a cross shaft somewhat. (note bearings are not included). The assembly is finished off in my edition with a non slotted aluminum sleeve. I have thought of reinforcing mine in just such a manner. I had not thought of how this sleeve would be captured; apparently TiR has not either or has just not told me. Maybe a spot of CA. If you do a complete glue up it is not going to have the desired flex.
Aluminum Center Shaft
The center shaft is nicely finished with the gear flange well lightened. You should be able to see this clearly in the second photo. Radial run out (up and down movement on the spur) and lateral runout (side to side movement on the spur) should be improved over the stock parts. The pulley rock can be cured in the same manner as before with only two parts to glue up. Rock the center pulleys apart and glue them together. They did include new pins.
The Web Experience
The TiR web experience was not very good, but give them some time. It should improve. My order was not complete with what I ordered. Instead of spare Nylon outdrives I received extra aluminum oudrives which I did not order. (I have seen this before from smaller shops). I did get the extra aluminum sleeves that I ordered and they are the blue ones that came with the spool, so I think I ordered properly. They were probably low in stock on the Nylon pieces. I did not get the promised pinions for the extra two week delay of my order. They may come later or not. Anyway the package took only 7 days to get here after it was posted. 15 days after the first e-mail sent requesting shipment details + 15 days of idle time. Maybe it's better to call them on the phone. No invoice or part numbers were included with the order.
Tests to come. Sundays race was rained out, but there may be a makeup date next Sunday.
John
Last edited by John Stranahan; 12-03-2007 at 07:22 PM.
12-03-2007, 09:00 PM
#459
The Titanium Racing (TiR or TR) installation went well. Here is another pic of the front spool and some more data. The weight of the TiR spool is 14 grams. This compares to both the Associated and my glued up plastic spool at 12 grams. About 1 gram of this is the blue reinforcing sleeves that go on the TiR oudrives. These do fit the associated plastic outdrive. If your are running Associated platic diff halves, you can add these sleeves, which are available separately, as extra insurance against breaking the plastic outdrive.
I am of course hoping this extra 2 grams and the good design will add to the durability of the front spool.
The center shaft has 3 pins where the associated part has 2 pins and a c clip. The third pin is shorter and is put on last and captured by the cone shaped spacer on the center shaft. The lateral runnout of the spur is now not visible to the eye. (less than about .002 inch). I checked the spur gear play at three positions on the spur. They were identical now. This latter check is where I was having a bit of a problem after the spur gear holder had some wear on it. Same Spur.
Front spool screws are set with liquid blue locktite and tightened hard. Spur gear screws are tightened only lightly to prevent distorting the spur and set with blue locktite.
I removed some spacers from the front spool so that it would not put end thrust on the outdrive bearings. It was just a little snug when I slid the assembly down into the blocks.
John
I am of course hoping this extra 2 grams and the good design will add to the durability of the front spool.
The center shaft has 3 pins where the associated part has 2 pins and a c clip. The third pin is shorter and is put on last and captured by the cone shaped spacer on the center shaft. The lateral runnout of the spur is now not visible to the eye. (less than about .002 inch). I checked the spur gear play at three positions on the spur. They were identical now. This latter check is where I was having a bit of a problem after the spur gear holder had some wear on it. Same Spur.
Front spool screws are set with liquid blue locktite and tightened hard. Spur gear screws are tightened only lightly to prevent distorting the spur and set with blue locktite.
I removed some spacers from the front spool so that it would not put end thrust on the outdrive bearings. It was just a little snug when I slid the assembly down into the blocks.
John
Last edited by John Stranahan; 12-04-2007 at 12:16 PM.
12-04-2007, 09:45 AM
#460
it's good to see you back - I was getting a bit worried there! 
12-04-2007, 08:15 PM
#462
Hey John, where did you get the blue 3mm screws? dialed!
12-04-2007, 08:20 PM
#463
FMAdirect.com, Cellpro Revolutions Lithium Polymer Batttery (test at 25 cycles)
As I reported just recently these two packs are still very fast in the car. I estimate they both have about 25 cycles now. I tested one and capacity was 4844 mAh for a 2.5 % loss. This is great; still over the listed specs. Voltage at a 20 Amp discharge was still 7.30!!. Discharge temp is super at 105F. I atribute these good numbers and good number retention to a superior brand and also a modest charge rate of 6 amperes as suggested by Linger. This brand has the best numbers and the best feel in the car than all the others that I have tested. I am averaging about 45 amp discharge in the touring car, so it is getting very hard use. It is being tested with a stock motor also. Maybe we can get another report. I have reposted the following information so you can compare the brands. Note that this particular pack at 150 mm is a bit long to fit most cars. It will fit a 7 cell car fine or my TC5 with some modifications. A clever enthusiast can shorten the leads to fit most cars. This requires removal of the small circuit board, I believe. Note that two of us have received 150 mm packs. The 135 mm on The FMA web site must be in error.
I had an oportunity to test my two new LiPo's from FMA direct. I also looked at some photographs and pack construction details which lead us to believe the original source is Saehan Enertech. Data on cycle life and performance of this cell is reported to me to be good.
Generally a LiPo pack will have the best numbers on the second or third cycle. I had one cell with a couple of cycles which tested:
Cell Pro Revolution 7.35 V at a 20 A discharge. Pack temp was reasonable at 110 F rising from 70F. Capacity was 4977 mA-h. I am extremely pleased. Track performance mirrored these good numbers. This is the best average voltage I have measure for a LiPo. Certainly a larger capacity battery tends to measure better, but these are not that much bigger than max amps which were about 4200 mA-h when new. Here are some numbers on some other packs I have tested for comparison. Now if you run softsided packs and can squeeze in this very long 150 mm long pack then I would recommend this pack so far. It does have a hard plastic and fiberglass thin protective plate on the top and the bottom to give a little protection to the edges.
I have tested a NiMH pack that had this same average voltage with powerful mod motors vs a LiPo ballasted to the same weight that only had 7.25 V average. The LiPo had a lot more punch. It just delivers the big amps better. This cellpro pack has the most punch that I have ever seen in the touring car.
Thunder Power Battery Tests at 20 hard, hot, high drain cycles
ThunderPower Battery at 20 cycles 3688 mA-h 7.17 V at a 20A discharge
ThunderPower Battery new 3950 mA-h 7.18 V at a 20A discharge
This is a 7% loss in runtime which is about the same for MaxAmp Packs after this many cycles and very little loss in voltage.
MaxAmps New 7.21V at a 20A discharge, 4238 mA-h capacity
MaxAmps after about 25 cycles 3905 7.14 This is a 7.8% loss in runtime (estimated 6% loss at 20 cycles)
The batteries are behaving very similarly at this point. A 1 % difference is less than the error in the treatment of the two brands.
Max Amp Packs
AmpMax Pack A 746 seconds at 20 Amps, 4144 mA-h, 7.16 V average
AmpMax Pack B 735 seconds at 20 Amps, 4083 mA-h, 7.19 V average
Orion 3200 mA-h 2S1p Avionics LiPo when new
20A discharge, 574 seconds, 3194 mA-h, 6.87 V average
The guts of this pack are identical to the graphite edition 3200 mA-h pack.
Apogee Magnum 3800 Lithium Manganese LiPo
Pack C 20 Amp discharge, 6.94 V average , 3744 mA-h tested when new. This was my most recently purchased pack.
Pack A and B tested better when new but deteriorated to about this voltage fairly rapidly with only a few months of age and use. The capacity deteriorated to about 3100 mA-h at present after a few months of hard use.
FMAdirect, Scorpion Lithium Cobalt Dioxide Pack 3200 mA-h
20 A discharge, 612s, 3400 mA-h, 7.19 V
This pack maintained voltage and capacity extremely well with use and time.
An improvement to the very long leads on the original pack improved this voltage to 7.25 V
This previously posted Pic shows how I am running the Cellpro Revolution Battery. There is a Lexan guard now on the outside edge because I have had to move it right to balance the low speed control position. The battery strap is long. I have not compared it to a TC3 strap. If you have a TC3 strap, give me the length from bolt to bolt for the 7 cell strap. We can compare. My custom strap is 158 mm from bolt center to bolt center. I just reversed the stock battery support posts to use it.
As I reported just recently these two packs are still very fast in the car. I estimate they both have about 25 cycles now. I tested one and capacity was 4844 mAh for a 2.5 % loss. This is great; still over the listed specs. Voltage at a 20 Amp discharge was still 7.30!!. Discharge temp is super at 105F. I atribute these good numbers and good number retention to a superior brand and also a modest charge rate of 6 amperes as suggested by Linger. This brand has the best numbers and the best feel in the car than all the others that I have tested. I am averaging about 45 amp discharge in the touring car, so it is getting very hard use. It is being tested with a stock motor also. Maybe we can get another report. I have reposted the following information so you can compare the brands. Note that this particular pack at 150 mm is a bit long to fit most cars. It will fit a 7 cell car fine or my TC5 with some modifications. A clever enthusiast can shorten the leads to fit most cars. This requires removal of the small circuit board, I believe. Note that two of us have received 150 mm packs. The 135 mm on The FMA web site must be in error.
I had an oportunity to test my two new LiPo's from FMA direct. I also looked at some photographs and pack construction details which lead us to believe the original source is Saehan Enertech. Data on cycle life and performance of this cell is reported to me to be good.
Generally a LiPo pack will have the best numbers on the second or third cycle. I had one cell with a couple of cycles which tested:
Cell Pro Revolution 7.35 V at a 20 A discharge. Pack temp was reasonable at 110 F rising from 70F. Capacity was 4977 mA-h. I am extremely pleased. Track performance mirrored these good numbers. This is the best average voltage I have measure for a LiPo. Certainly a larger capacity battery tends to measure better, but these are not that much bigger than max amps which were about 4200 mA-h when new. Here are some numbers on some other packs I have tested for comparison. Now if you run softsided packs and can squeeze in this very long 150 mm long pack then I would recommend this pack so far. It does have a hard plastic and fiberglass thin protective plate on the top and the bottom to give a little protection to the edges.
I have tested a NiMH pack that had this same average voltage with powerful mod motors vs a LiPo ballasted to the same weight that only had 7.25 V average. The LiPo had a lot more punch. It just delivers the big amps better. This cellpro pack has the most punch that I have ever seen in the touring car.
Thunder Power Battery Tests at 20 hard, hot, high drain cycles
ThunderPower Battery at 20 cycles 3688 mA-h 7.17 V at a 20A discharge
ThunderPower Battery new 3950 mA-h 7.18 V at a 20A discharge
This is a 7% loss in runtime which is about the same for MaxAmp Packs after this many cycles and very little loss in voltage.
MaxAmps New 7.21V at a 20A discharge, 4238 mA-h capacity
MaxAmps after about 25 cycles 3905 7.14 This is a 7.8% loss in runtime (estimated 6% loss at 20 cycles)
The batteries are behaving very similarly at this point. A 1 % difference is less than the error in the treatment of the two brands.
Max Amp Packs
AmpMax Pack A 746 seconds at 20 Amps, 4144 mA-h, 7.16 V average
AmpMax Pack B 735 seconds at 20 Amps, 4083 mA-h, 7.19 V average
Orion 3200 mA-h 2S1p Avionics LiPo when new
20A discharge, 574 seconds, 3194 mA-h, 6.87 V average
The guts of this pack are identical to the graphite edition 3200 mA-h pack.
Apogee Magnum 3800 Lithium Manganese LiPo
Pack C 20 Amp discharge, 6.94 V average , 3744 mA-h tested when new. This was my most recently purchased pack.
Pack A and B tested better when new but deteriorated to about this voltage fairly rapidly with only a few months of age and use. The capacity deteriorated to about 3100 mA-h at present after a few months of hard use.
FMAdirect, Scorpion Lithium Cobalt Dioxide Pack 3200 mA-h
20 A discharge, 612s, 3400 mA-h, 7.19 V
This pack maintained voltage and capacity extremely well with use and time.
An improvement to the very long leads on the original pack improved this voltage to 7.25 V
This previously posted Pic shows how I am running the Cellpro Revolution Battery. There is a Lexan guard now on the outside edge because I have had to move it right to balance the low speed control position. The battery strap is long. I have not compared it to a TC3 strap. If you have a TC3 strap, give me the length from bolt to bolt for the 7 cell strap. We can compare. My custom strap is 158 mm from bolt center to bolt center. I just reversed the stock battery support posts to use it.
Last edited by John Stranahan; 12-06-2007 at 11:09 AM.
12-04-2007, 09:01 PM
#464
Aluminum Screws
Sean-The screws are from Fastener Express. Here is a suggestion of what to order in a previous post.
John
Sean-The screws are from Fastener Express. Here is a suggestion of what to order in a previous post.
John
12-04-2007, 09:57 PM
#465
The FMA packs (Saehan Enertech cells) are the real thing. They were noticeably better with "stock" (13.5) carpet racing than the Kokam cells in the Orion packs. I can confirm that they're quite long at 150+mm, at least with the three I've seen.
You can shorten them in increments. On the non-lead end, there's a foam pad which you can remove, but it will leave the cell ends exposed. On the circuit board, you can easily solder thinner wires in place of the existing wires and shorten it a bit that way. But, ultimately, if you need it to be a standard length, you'll have to very carefully remove the circuit board by desoldering the tabs that are pushed through it. You'll then be left with the raw cells and tabs, and can solder to them. The positive aluminum tabs have a nickel tab welded to them that you can solder to. The negative tabs are nickel and easily soldered. The packs are still long, though. If you're brave, you can squish the tabs down somewhat and bend them inward. Good luck with that, though. I'd really like to see someone bring the Saehan cells to market in a shorter configuration, perhaps with a hard case.
You can shorten them in increments. On the non-lead end, there's a foam pad which you can remove, but it will leave the cell ends exposed. On the circuit board, you can easily solder thinner wires in place of the existing wires and shorten it a bit that way. But, ultimately, if you need it to be a standard length, you'll have to very carefully remove the circuit board by desoldering the tabs that are pushed through it. You'll then be left with the raw cells and tabs, and can solder to them. The positive aluminum tabs have a nickel tab welded to them that you can solder to. The negative tabs are nickel and easily soldered. The packs are still long, though. If you're brave, you can squish the tabs down somewhat and bend them inward. Good luck with that, though. I'd really like to see someone bring the Saehan cells to market in a shorter configuration, perhaps with a hard case.