Associated Factory Team TC5, Brushless, LiPo, Li-ion Nanophosphate, Tips and Tricks
11-02-2007, 03:58 PM
#406
Kn7671 thanks for the report. Sad news. more below.
Track Test
Traction med on rubber, medium-low on foam, 90 F track temp, cool
Jeff had the tracks timer calling out lap times. (Nitro Nats are coming next week). I got a few runs in on a fairly clean track that had two other cars on it today.
Practice lap times were immediately as fast as the fastest I had last race. Low 19's to 19.0 was the best.
I traction rolled the car. This was my first ever. I turned slightly left then right onto a highspeed sweeper and it rolled faster than I could take any corrective action. This really was a driver error as I made the little back and forth move too fast. I really don't need that little left move either as it is not a motorcycle. I had no troubles elsewhere with smooth radio movements. This shows that I am getting good traction from my rubber tires on a mediocre day for foams. There was a 1/10 nitro and 1/8th nitro turning slower laps than me.
I tried 3 tire types.
CS32-best traction
Sorex 32-these are smoother in the drift, but were a couple tenths slower today. This was a really old set.
Takeoff RP30's these had good grip early but it went away suddenly after four laps. This indicates that they are too soft.
I ran my caster block pivots without my locktite fix (page 1 of the thread) after my recent bearing overhaul. On the RP30's I tapped a board hard sideways from the tires just letting go after they got too hot. It tore out the bottom screw out of the caster block. My thought was maybe it was not needed with the more flexible material and slightly larger screws. I still recommend it after this incident. I had no trouble up there for a month of hard use with the locktite applied. It does take heat from a soldering iron to dissasemble it for service.
In a similar vein the need for a shim added to the crush spacer on the drive axles has not materialized. Because the plastic is softer now the bearings waller out the holes and become more sloppy in the steering blocks with use. You cannot remove this by tightening the wheels harder.
I found some rubber sealed bearings with grease for the wheels at the hobby shop. I found some new metal shield bearing with grease for the outdrives. This is not so ideal. You really need grease and rubber seals here, then the outdrive bearings last forever.
Grease or Oil
A bearing with grease will make a channel in the grease on first use and the balls will run on an oily film. The grease just does a much better job of staying in the bearing, to provide this lubrication, and of sealing the dirt out. This is what I recommend for general use on the car, rubber seals with grease. That 3.5 motor spins really fast, it needs the oil to keep from exploding the ball retainer inside the bearing. This is the only bearing in the car, I would use oil on by preference.
If you are going to a big race you might shave a few.01 s off your first heats wtih oil and metal shields, but I estimate by heat 3 or 4, a few of the bearings will have grit in them , by the third or fourth session all the bearings will be scored up and ruined by the grit. I have tested this. Yes the car will still work, but will be slower than if you had used grease at the beginning.
I am sad to see the kits coming with oil in the bearings.
John
Track Test
Traction med on rubber, medium-low on foam, 90 F track temp, cool
Jeff had the tracks timer calling out lap times. (Nitro Nats are coming next week). I got a few runs in on a fairly clean track that had two other cars on it today.
Practice lap times were immediately as fast as the fastest I had last race. Low 19's to 19.0 was the best.
I traction rolled the car. This was my first ever. I turned slightly left then right onto a highspeed sweeper and it rolled faster than I could take any corrective action. This really was a driver error as I made the little back and forth move too fast. I really don't need that little left move either as it is not a motorcycle. I had no troubles elsewhere with smooth radio movements. This shows that I am getting good traction from my rubber tires on a mediocre day for foams. There was a 1/10 nitro and 1/8th nitro turning slower laps than me.
I tried 3 tire types.
CS32-best traction
Sorex 32-these are smoother in the drift, but were a couple tenths slower today. This was a really old set.
Takeoff RP30's these had good grip early but it went away suddenly after four laps. This indicates that they are too soft.
I ran my caster block pivots without my locktite fix (page 1 of the thread) after my recent bearing overhaul. On the RP30's I tapped a board hard sideways from the tires just letting go after they got too hot. It tore out the bottom screw out of the caster block. My thought was maybe it was not needed with the more flexible material and slightly larger screws. I still recommend it after this incident. I had no trouble up there for a month of hard use with the locktite applied. It does take heat from a soldering iron to dissasemble it for service.
In a similar vein the need for a shim added to the crush spacer on the drive axles has not materialized. Because the plastic is softer now the bearings waller out the holes and become more sloppy in the steering blocks with use. You cannot remove this by tightening the wheels harder.
I found some rubber sealed bearings with grease for the wheels at the hobby shop. I found some new metal shield bearing with grease for the outdrives. This is not so ideal. You really need grease and rubber seals here, then the outdrive bearings last forever.
Grease or Oil
A bearing with grease will make a channel in the grease on first use and the balls will run on an oily film. The grease just does a much better job of staying in the bearing, to provide this lubrication, and of sealing the dirt out. This is what I recommend for general use on the car, rubber seals with grease. That 3.5 motor spins really fast, it needs the oil to keep from exploding the ball retainer inside the bearing. This is the only bearing in the car, I would use oil on by preference.
If you are going to a big race you might shave a few.01 s off your first heats wtih oil and metal shields, but I estimate by heat 3 or 4, a few of the bearings will have grit in them , by the third or fourth session all the bearings will be scored up and ruined by the grit. I have tested this. Yes the car will still work, but will be slower than if you had used grease at the beginning.
I am sad to see the kits coming with oil in the bearings.
John
Last edited by John Stranahan; 11-02-2007 at 04:16 PM.
11-03-2007, 07:43 AM
#407
Tech Regular
Hi John, do you know what your TC-5 weighs with a 6 cell nimh pack? I'm in the middle of testing my direct drive/IRS TC and I could use a benchmark. My car is a little heavy at 47 oz. ( 6 cell 3300 nimh, Novak XBR/10.5) The chassis is .093 G-10. Thanks, Don
11-03-2007, 10:35 AM
#408
Give us a pic when its time.
My car weights 44.6 ounces with rubber tires. A couple of ounces less with foam tires.
The LiPo weighs 9.1 ounces.
I don't have a suitable NiMH to weigh, but I think they weigh 13-14 ounces, So I am about 48.6 ounces with rubber tires and NiMH.
I had my first front drive axle go south. It ejected the center parts. That is a strange failure for me and caught me by surprise as I did not stock those spares. I had a spare axle and dogbone, but not the little barrel which is now a smaller size. I ground a new one on the lathe from an old part for emergency use this weekend. Anyway keep these on hand.
I had put some spacers to widen the front of the car. I had to remove these now as the Associated spool is a bit worn and the bone was slipping out of the outdrive on occasion, not completely, just enough to tear up the end of the outdrive a little bit.
John
My car weights 44.6 ounces with rubber tires. A couple of ounces less with foam tires.
The LiPo weighs 9.1 ounces.
I don't have a suitable NiMH to weigh, but I think they weigh 13-14 ounces, So I am about 48.6 ounces with rubber tires and NiMH.
I had my first front drive axle go south. It ejected the center parts. That is a strange failure for me and caught me by surprise as I did not stock those spares. I had a spare axle and dogbone, but not the little barrel which is now a smaller size. I ground a new one on the lathe from an old part for emergency use this weekend. Anyway keep these on hand.
I had put some spacers to widen the front of the car. I had to remove these now as the Associated spool is a bit worn and the bone was slipping out of the outdrive on occasion, not completely, just enough to tear up the end of the outdrive a little bit.
John
11-03-2007, 12:30 PM
#409
Tech Regular
That's pretty light. I guess I'll have to find ways to remove weight. Thanks, Don
11-03-2007, 03:09 PM
#410
Don - Well then send me an e-mail [email protected] if you want another pair of eyes. Here is a pic of my TC5 in lightweight trim. Here is a pic of my custom built direct drive pan car at 43 ounces. Sounds like an exciting project. 43-44 ounces is a really good weight on outdoor asphalt. Lighter seems to cause problems with traction sometimes. Heavier just makes the car more sluggish.
Ran the car for half a pack today just to test the two bandaid fixes. I lost one of the little bushings on the caster block. The old ones are a smaller inner diameter. 81.7s was the TC5's fastest lap. Thats .2s faster than during the last race with no chase involved, quite a few more high 18's (my electric 1/10 pan car record is 17.8s on sugar). With the car light I was able to lower the car another .5 mm. The greatest gains were made by changing my line on the hairpins. Now I brake medium take a little larger radius turn, but not as large as you would with a one-way. It is half way in between one-way and coming in very hot braking hard and turning tight. With laps being annouced on the PA it was easy to tell that this was most of the improvement. The rubber tires just grip harder on this larger radius turn. Corner exit speed is higher.
The car was slightly more stable lower. This helped as well. 5.5 mm front 6 mm rear ride height.
The strapping tape holding the battery cut at the edge of the sharp tape slot one time. I beveled the slot and polished it on the bottom inner side to rectify this problem. It was not dragging the track.
I quit the session early as I was down to less than a handfull of pin pillows. I saved a couple for the race. Wish my TIR stuff would come in. It's been forever. Race tomorrow.
John
Ran the car for half a pack today just to test the two bandaid fixes. I lost one of the little bushings on the caster block. The old ones are a smaller inner diameter. 81.7s was the TC5's fastest lap. Thats .2s faster than during the last race with no chase involved, quite a few more high 18's (my electric 1/10 pan car record is 17.8s on sugar). With the car light I was able to lower the car another .5 mm. The greatest gains were made by changing my line on the hairpins. Now I brake medium take a little larger radius turn, but not as large as you would with a one-way. It is half way in between one-way and coming in very hot braking hard and turning tight. With laps being annouced on the PA it was easy to tell that this was most of the improvement. The rubber tires just grip harder on this larger radius turn. Corner exit speed is higher.
The car was slightly more stable lower. This helped as well. 5.5 mm front 6 mm rear ride height.
The strapping tape holding the battery cut at the edge of the sharp tape slot one time. I beveled the slot and polished it on the bottom inner side to rectify this problem. It was not dragging the track.
I quit the session early as I was down to less than a handfull of pin pillows. I saved a couple for the race. Wish my TIR stuff would come in. It's been forever. Race tomorrow.
John
Last edited by John Stranahan; 11-03-2007 at 05:42 PM.
11-03-2007, 08:48 PM
#411
Give us a pic when its time.
My car weights 44.6 ounces with rubber tires. A couple of ounces less with foam tires.
The LiPo weighs 9.1 ounces.
I don't have a suitable NiMH to weigh, but I think they weigh 13-14 ounces, So I am about 48.6 ounces with rubber tires and NiMH.
I had my first front drive axle go south. It ejected the center parts. That is a strange failure for me and caught me by surprise as I did not stock those spares. I had a spare axle and dogbone, but not the little barrel which is now a smaller size. I ground a new one on the lathe from an old part for emergency use this weekend. Anyway keep these on hand.
I had put some spacers to widen the front of the car. I had to remove these now as the Associated spool is a bit worn and the bone was slipping out of the outdrive on occasion, not completely, just enough to tear up the end of the outdrive a little bit.
John
My car weights 44.6 ounces with rubber tires. A couple of ounces less with foam tires.
The LiPo weighs 9.1 ounces.
I don't have a suitable NiMH to weigh, but I think they weigh 13-14 ounces, So I am about 48.6 ounces with rubber tires and NiMH.
I had my first front drive axle go south. It ejected the center parts. That is a strange failure for me and caught me by surprise as I did not stock those spares. I had a spare axle and dogbone, but not the little barrel which is now a smaller size. I ground a new one on the lathe from an old part for emergency use this weekend. Anyway keep these on hand.
I had put some spacers to widen the front of the car. I had to remove these now as the Associated spool is a bit worn and the bone was slipping out of the outdrive on occasion, not completely, just enough to tear up the end of the outdrive a little bit.
John
11-03-2007, 10:19 PM
#412
on Orions site they list their 4800 at a true 15C after saying it was 20c a while back and after searching on their site further I found that they have an airplane lipo (also 4800) rated at 20c. It looks to be the same Kokam type cell just not in a hard case but it's listed at 20c. I feel that the C rating deal is just a marketing type thing. I was interested in getting the 3600 once it became availible because I wanted to see how much of a punch difference it may be between the two but since the info released has been different I'll just stick with the 4800 from Orion and possible test out other packs in the future.
11-03-2007, 10:27 PM
#413
I had my first front drive axle go south. It ejected the center parts. That is a strange failure for me and caught me by surprise as I did not stock those spares. I had a spare axle and dogbone, but not the little barrel which is now a smaller size. I ground a new one on the lathe from an old part for emergency use this weekend. Anyway keep these on hand.
Keep up the great work John!
11-04-2007, 05:59 AM
#414
Tech Regular
John, as soon as I can I'm going to try to put a picture of it up in the column. The last time I did that I had high speed internet access, now I'm on dial-up.( the high speedwas$65 a month, dial-up is free-20 hrs. a week) I've yet to figure out how to put a pic in an e-mail. I'm going to try running it with a 2s A123 pack mounted on the rt side of the chassis. With that battery it weighs 40 oz- probably to light. With the 10.5 and 6 cells it is ballistic- it feels that way for me because I've always run stock powered cars. I had to readjust the diff and let it slip a little, otherwise the car likes to go sideways a lot. I need to learn throttle control. Don
11-04-2007, 02:24 PM
#416
stlnst-Thanks for the current NiMH weights.
Verndog-I'll have to get some 3/8 shrink. Nice tip! If it keeps things clean in there, then I can run a little bit more grease. This will probably help my wear issues. I have about 30 runs on the CVD's. The one that failed probably had loosened the setscrew and then a crash jarred the clip off the end of the pin.
gurumods. Here is a Max amps pack that will probably fit. It has specs in mm. It is easy to go taller on this car and still use the stock battery strap.
http://www.maxamps.com/Lipo-5000-111-Pack.htm. Measure your NiMH and then compare the mm to the specs of this pack. There are quite a few suppliers now. I have not used the 11.1 V packs. This is the shorter TC5 thread with the longer posts by the way.
Here is how to attach a picture to e-mail. Write the mail. At the bottom or somewhere on the mail screen there will be a button "attach File". Hit that button and you get a browse window. Use it to find your picture on your computer select it with the mouse and then hit open file. Now when you send the mail the picture will be attached to it.
This is very similar to the method that you guys can attach pictures to your post that use small thumbnails. You probably are aware as I am that we overload RCtechs bandwidth every once in a while. It is easier on RCtech when a guy clicks on a page and it does not have to dowload 6 full size pictures from elsewhere, just small thumbnails. It does use more of RCtech files space to do it this way but they can just delete old threads which they do on occasion to cure this problem.
Race Report
Track Clean Traction Medium 20 entries
I had my fastest lap in practice on brand new tires. 18.5 s.
The first heat went well. I had quite a few 18's, 3-18.7's The car qualified 8 out of 20 nitro entries which included about 7 1/8 scales. I was pleased.
I had a DNF in round two caused by a wheel nut backing off.
In round three I was doing well and approaching a big pack 1/10 Nitros about mid way in the race. We had ifmar starts. I started 6th. Then the car traction rolled on the sweeper. I repeated this twice more while trying different lines. The only solution was to go slower. Traction had built up from track warming and a larger than normal bunch of racers. I will have to do some traction detuning. I can move my speed control back down lower now that it is cooler. Motor temp was only 145F the first heat. As a start I will up the shock oil to 30 from 25.
The foams may have worked in that third heat. I might still try them since I have them already.
Because of all the big races we have been having a club race only about once a month. It is hard to get in a race groove that way. I run a little nervous and all pumped up with adrenalin. That's why we do this I guess.
John
Verndog-I'll have to get some 3/8 shrink. Nice tip! If it keeps things clean in there, then I can run a little bit more grease. This will probably help my wear issues. I have about 30 runs on the CVD's. The one that failed probably had loosened the setscrew and then a crash jarred the clip off the end of the pin.
gurumods. Here is a Max amps pack that will probably fit. It has specs in mm. It is easy to go taller on this car and still use the stock battery strap.
http://www.maxamps.com/Lipo-5000-111-Pack.htm. Measure your NiMH and then compare the mm to the specs of this pack. There are quite a few suppliers now. I have not used the 11.1 V packs. This is the shorter TC5 thread with the longer posts by the way.
Here is how to attach a picture to e-mail. Write the mail. At the bottom or somewhere on the mail screen there will be a button "attach File". Hit that button and you get a browse window. Use it to find your picture on your computer select it with the mouse and then hit open file. Now when you send the mail the picture will be attached to it.
This is very similar to the method that you guys can attach pictures to your post that use small thumbnails. You probably are aware as I am that we overload RCtechs bandwidth every once in a while. It is easier on RCtech when a guy clicks on a page and it does not have to dowload 6 full size pictures from elsewhere, just small thumbnails. It does use more of RCtech files space to do it this way but they can just delete old threads which they do on occasion to cure this problem.
Race Report
Track Clean Traction Medium 20 entries
I had my fastest lap in practice on brand new tires. 18.5 s.
The first heat went well. I had quite a few 18's, 3-18.7's The car qualified 8 out of 20 nitro entries which included about 7 1/8 scales. I was pleased.
I had a DNF in round two caused by a wheel nut backing off.
In round three I was doing well and approaching a big pack 1/10 Nitros about mid way in the race. We had ifmar starts. I started 6th. Then the car traction rolled on the sweeper. I repeated this twice more while trying different lines. The only solution was to go slower. Traction had built up from track warming and a larger than normal bunch of racers. I will have to do some traction detuning. I can move my speed control back down lower now that it is cooler. Motor temp was only 145F the first heat. As a start I will up the shock oil to 30 from 25.
The foams may have worked in that third heat. I might still try them since I have them already.
Because of all the big races we have been having a club race only about once a month. It is hard to get in a race groove that way. I run a little nervous and all pumped up with adrenalin. That's why we do this I guess.
John
Last edited by John Stranahan; 11-04-2007 at 06:08 PM.
11-04-2007, 05:27 PM
#417
In the TC-5 thread there is a post about Team Tamale Aluminum upgrades for the TC-5.. C-Hubs in development along with steering knuckles (eventually)... I have ran a lot of Team Tamale parts and can't wait to see what he's come up with.. Always a step above the rest.
Team Tamale homepage http://www.teamtamale.com
Team Tamale homepage http://www.teamtamale.com
11-04-2007, 08:09 PM
#418
ChadL-Tell us when their TC5 stuff becomes available.
Post race changes.
I moved some weight down and mounted the receiver to the servo as twistdone showed us earlier. This allowed me to keep a good cooling gap between the motor and speed control. I moved the battery right to the edge of the chassis. I added a Lexan shield made from .030 Lexan to the outer edge of the battery. I added the battery strap to the left side to add a little weight. The sweeper is a right hand turn. I may add sway bars to increase the roll stiffness and take away a little traction. I will probably have some good higher traction conditions to practice this week with the Nationals traffic on the track.
As I said previously these traction rolls are a brand new experience for me in a touring car. The JRXS was never even close to that. The Nitro guys are subject to these as well, and sometimes roll starting about midway in the main at bigger races. The solution may be increased roll stiffness or I can lengthen my upper camber links and take out some beneficial negative camber gain. What causes them is that traction improves as racers lay down a good line of rubber during the race.
Here is a pic of some of the changes.
TIR had a nice TC5 catalog in .pdf that just came out. It is attached below.
John
Post race changes.
I moved some weight down and mounted the receiver to the servo as twistdone showed us earlier. This allowed me to keep a good cooling gap between the motor and speed control. I moved the battery right to the edge of the chassis. I added a Lexan shield made from .030 Lexan to the outer edge of the battery. I added the battery strap to the left side to add a little weight. The sweeper is a right hand turn. I may add sway bars to increase the roll stiffness and take away a little traction. I will probably have some good higher traction conditions to practice this week with the Nationals traffic on the track.
As I said previously these traction rolls are a brand new experience for me in a touring car. The JRXS was never even close to that. The Nitro guys are subject to these as well, and sometimes roll starting about midway in the main at bigger races. The solution may be increased roll stiffness or I can lengthen my upper camber links and take out some beneficial negative camber gain. What causes them is that traction improves as racers lay down a good line of rubber during the race.
Here is a pic of some of the changes.
TIR had a nice TC5 catalog in .pdf that just came out. It is attached below.
John
Last edited by John Stranahan; 11-05-2007 at 08:17 AM.
11-05-2007, 08:50 AM
#419
I turned slightly left then right onto a highspeed sweeper
11-05-2007, 09:35 AM
#420
The IIC layout looks like there's a little bit of that going on as you enter the long straight. That little leg proceeding it, it seems like there are two different lines. Some guys go straight and square off that turn, while others turn slightly away, and then turn in. I can't tell which is faster, but the guys that turn away and then in seem to come onto the straight with more stability than guys who square it off.